St Andrew's Day march against racism

Well done to the STUC for yesterday again organising their St Andrew's Day march against racism. Some of the media coverage - Scotland on Sunday and BBC.

I had a short article in the programme for the event. Points I touched upon were the reaction to the Glasgow Airport attack, Martin Amis's cruel experiments, and the attempts of some Labour MPs like Margaret Hodge to triangulate with the BNP.

This year's march marked 200 years since the end of the slave trade. I made the point though that neo-slavery is very much in existence on our high streets. We all have a duty to buy ethically.

Comments

[David]

..and slavery is very much in existence in the Islamic world.But let's not mention that.Let's attack the West rather than societies which condone slavery to this day and have no history of opposition to it. After all, Mohammed had slaves ( kaffir ones of course) at least according to the earliest Islamic biographies.

[joe90]

Pardon me David
but RuT looks as if it is celebrating the fact that the West, and specifically Britian, has actually abolished slavery, and the article doesn't seem to be attacking anyone on that score.

Unless you mean private companies and slave-owners both of which aren't states, but then, this isn't specific to the West as you yourself point out, using a highly relevent and contemporary example from early Medieval Arabia.

What do you think organisations such as the STUC should do then David - invent a time-travel machine and go back and free the people of Medieval Arabia perhaps?

[David]

Well Joe, there is slavery in the Arab Muslim world to this day. No time machine needed. Given that many (all?) Muslims look to Mohammed as their example of conduct( hence his words to kill apostates/stone women to death for example are followed in the world today)his views on slavery (in favour) are relevant.The Koran says men can have up to four wives plus as many slave concubines as the man owned. No anti-slavery movement developed in the Muslim world. Hardly surprising,given the all too relevant background. So I'd say the STUC has a little to learn. Why not campaign against slavery in Muslim lands and the "scriptures" which condone it?

[Osama Saeed]

Joe90: "Pardon me David
but RuT looks as if it is celebrating the fact that the West, and specifically Britian, has actually abolished slavery, and the article doesn't seem to be attacking anyone on that score."

Some people will grind their axe no matter what the context Joe.

[joe90]

there is slavery in the Arab Muslim world to this day
- Some evidence from you on this point would be ok by me.

And you haven't told me where the West is being attacked in Osama's article - so could you let me know because I can't see it.

And what do you think the STUC should do then, about the Qu'ran and slavery and guys in caves, if a time-travel machine isn't an option?
I only mention this because you do.

As far as I can see
there are tons of stuff in The Bible which Jews/Christian can use to justify horrible behaviour, and often do - so why stop at just The Holy Scripture of Islam, why not condemn the whole lot, or is it you're just a bigot in the same way the Nazis were bigoted against Jewish folk and held Holy Jewish Scriptures and various Jewish cultures up to public scrutiny more often than most?

Hardly the civilised westerner you seem to be claiming you are - picking on one group and leaving out others - that isn't very progressive or enlightening if you ask me.

I am sure we could spend all day pointing out the deficiencies of other People history and culture, due to the fact that we in the west are such benign, civilised and enlightened g-d-like beings - but if these are such important problems, then what do you plan to do, or what should be done that isn't being done already, about these violations of Human Rights?

Dictatorship is a form of slavery and the US and UK support every dictatorship you can shake a stick at. In the same way the Soviet Empire was made up of dictatorships, so the American Empire is made up of Middle East Dictatorships.

The US, supported by the UK, is responsible for the greatest amount of slavery in the world via its Soviet-style dictatorships and also its private tyrannies in the form of buisness corporations, which treat its employees in the Global South-Third World no better than slaves and serfs.

What are you, as the self-styled progressive enlightened, anti-slavery (in all its forms presumably), western guy, going to do about western support for the Chinese dictatorship and also the American Empire, stuffed with corrupt totalitarian dictators and despots - or is this all the fault of some guy in a cave, in early medieval Arabia, writing stuff down?

[David]

Judging by this blog you appear to be the axe grinding expert Mr Saeed.What the(mild) reaction to the people who attacked Glasgow airport in the name (the bombers said) of Islam, or Martin Amis' comments have to do with the West's abolition of slavery I don't know. Why not direct your obvious ire towards all those Islamic teachings, including slavery and Mohammed's command to his followers to offer non-Muslims conversion, subugation or the sword ? A campaign to reform Islam would be hang of a lot more useful than whinging about a Labour MP or Martin Amis. In the context of slavery's abolition, a campaign by Western Muslims for freedom for slaves in the Islamic world, or for equal rights for the Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc of the Islamic world would be far more apposite than a litany of petty complaints.

[Osama]

"Mild reaction"? Like organising a demonstration against it?

[joe90]

a litany of petty complaints
- First, David the paragon of western virtue, criticises the RuT article above for something it doesn't do, namely attacking the West - I wouldn't really know what an attack on the West looked like myself anyway, maybe David, the rabidly enlightened pro-westerner, can let me know.

Anyway,
David doesn't point to where this alleged attack on the west is, in the above article, for the very good reason that it doesn't exist.

Maybe David, the very confused westerner,
is criticing the article because it is highlighting western corporate slavery in the Global South-Third World, for which we in the civilised enlightened west are responible for. Perhaps this is why David thinks himself so progressive and morally advanced, is because he is blind to his own support for crimes he himself criticises others of perpetrating and supporting.

The old habit of British hypocrisy dies hard.

However,
not satisfied with criticing RuT's article over something it doesn't contain, David the paragon of western virtue and intellectual and moral rigour, then goes on to criticise the article because it does contain something, actual real content, er... criticing an article because it does actually contain real material content is a new one to me.

These evil Islamic masterminds sure work in mysterious ways - unlike neo-nazis who are so transparant you could spit through them.

You can see the old neo-nazi conundrum here where they blame their victims of living in the past, rather than in the modern world - but if the victims of neo-nazis do engage with issues to do very much with the real world, then they are abused for it and accused of ignoring far more important issues such as up-to-date stuff like exegesis of Holy Scripture, theology, repeated allegations of widepsread criminal activity in far off lands for which no evidence is ever provided, etc etc etc blah blah blah...

As you can see, it is neo-nazi fossils like David who are living in the past.

[joe90]

people who attacked Glasgow airport in the name...of Islam

So much for all David's enlightened western education,
when he can't tell the diffrence between some nutter's claims and actual reality.

Maybe that's why the likes of Bush, Blair and Rupert Murdoch have problems dealing with reality - they think their claims that they carry out war crimes abroad and destroy democracy at home are actually true and that the rest of the population support them in these endevours. Just like these terrorists who have no support whatever, neither does Bush, Blair Murdoch or David.

Bush, Blair and Murdoch actually believe the crimes they carry out against humanity, truth and democracy are in support of the very things they are actually attacking and destroying!

In order to save democracy at home you have to destroy it with Patriot Acts I and II, and so-called anti-terrorist legislation even Goebbels would be proud of!

I remember a time we in the West went to war in order to 'liberate' Kuwait in order to hand it back a family of unelected despots - such is the west's love of freedom and democracy.

I remember a time when we in Britian grovelled at the feet of an unelected despot that rules over one of the ugliest, most repressive regimes in the world. This was only the other week, when the unelected feudal monarch from Saudi Arabia came and visited our own unelected feudal monarch, here in Britian - such is our love for freedom and democracy we sell this medieval amputator and beheader billions of pounds worth of British military equipment and train his thugs in how to keep his People from overthrowing him.

What about the racist regime of Israel and the illegal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan and all the American dictatorships which blight the lives of the Peoples of the Middle East and beyond?

Still
it will be interesting to see all the evidence of slavery and stuff 'Islam' is responsible for - after all we are talking about 1400 years of history, stretching across vast areas of the globe, involving huge numbers of people and populations - there is bound to be be squillions of evidence of 'Islamic' wrong-doing,
if what David says is true.

[David]

If one criticises a belief system which has at its heart commandments to fight against the world and subdue it, which hates ( according to its sacred writings) all non Muslims, is deeply misogynistic and antipathetic to freedom of belief or life one is a "neo nazi" according to some on this site. Hmm. The Nazis actually were very warmly disposed to Islam you'll discover if you read a little. Meanwhile whatever is in the Christian or Jewish bible ( or indeed the writings of other faiths) none of that is being used to support/condone/ carry into practise - slavery, execution for apostacy, execution of gay men, subjugation of women, suicide bombing, stoning to death, amputation of limbs, destruction of art etc. Instead of insulting people opposed to these things I'd suggest the blog owner and his acolytes campaign against all those who take the Koran, Ahadith and Sira literally and in their desire to emulate the life of Mohammed and obey the word of Allah make war on the world.

[joe90]

The Nazis actually were very warmly disposed to Islam you'll discover if you read a little.
- I think you'll find it was Christianity the Nazis were warmly disposed towards, and formed a single unity National Church together with Christians on that basis.

The Nazis signed a Conconcordat in 1933 with the Roman Catholic Church - the common basis here being the Roman Catholic and the Nazis opposition to 'extreme left' communism.

Or don't you read history books David?

It was (nominally) Christian Europeans who were antisemitic and got on famously with Nazis, not Muslims.

Try Prof Richard J. Evans three part history of the Third Reich, the third volume of which is eagerly awaited by all.

Of course, I am only relating the facts of history and don't want to give Christian folk the idea that I am smearing them as some kind of natural nazi-sympathisers, or anything like it. Christian folk of the time, were under a great deal of pressure from the Nazi thugs and acted no different from other victims of the Nazis.

...none of that is being used to support/condone/ carry into practise...
- Hence the reason Western governments supply the likes of Saudi Arabia with billions of pounds of weapons and train their government thugs in how to prevent Saudi public from toppling the Western puppets of the House of Fraud.

...none of that is being used to support/condone/ carry into practise...
- Hence the reason the CIA is responsible for starting, supporting and training Al-Quaeda, and the US government is responsible for providing Al Quaeda in Afghanistan with $3 billion worth of equipment and support.

...none of that is being used to support/condone/ carry into practise...
- Hence, the reason the US and its allies (don't laugh) liberated Kuwait in 1991 in the name of freedom and democracy, in order to put the family of medieval despots, the Al Sabahs, back in power.

And I think you'll find David,
that it isn't your criticism of any system of belief which lead me to accuse you of being a neo-nazi. It's your monolithic manichean mindset, and your accusations of 'extreme left' being in league with Muslims (read 'Jews') which makes you a neo-nazi. Of course, your deliberately mis-representing other people's arguments in order to make them fit your monolithic racist view of the world, is also an old Goebbel's propaganda trick.

So much for your claims to be, and to be a typical representative of, enlightened liberal-minded westerners.

[David]

Hitler and Himmler made very complimentary statements about Islam ,the martial aspects of which they compared favourably to what Hitler called the "priests' rubbish" of forgiveness and love. Of course the Mufti of Jerusalem and many other Isalmic figures of the time including a young Sadat were pro Nazi. the Bosian SS units were notorious. The Middle east gave succour to many Nazis after the war. Today, much anti Jewish propoganda permeates broadcasts and media in many Arab states including dissemination of the fake protocols of the elders of Zion. even little children appear on Palestinian tv state how much they hate the Jews. And of course the Koran does calls Jews "pigs and apes". Children learn that in Saudi funded schools in the UK. Nice. You won't find anything like that in any other faiths' holy books so you could never read "Jew" for "Muslim" in what I wrote. But don't let the facts get in the way.

All my references were to the teachings of the Koran, the Ahadith and the Sira. To deny (as you apparently do) that there is a large body of Islamic teaching inherently opposed to any notion of freedom is either through ignorance or an astonishing degree of wilful blindness. Why you would want to defend such things escapes me. The imposition of sharia simply leads to tyranny. No separation of church and state. No freedom of conscience. No law except god's.

If I am a Nazi then so, too, I suppose are all who believe in the Koran. There and in the Traditions of Mohammed (Ahadith) you will find all of the commands to violence against women, gays, non Muslims (especially Jews). there you will find the cruel and unusual punishments I refer to.

Instead of fulminating against me with the most farcical statements (it shows a lack of anything to say if anyone who disagrees with one is a Nazi) why not campaign for freedom for non Muslims in Muslim countries? Muslims are free in the West but that is not the case( nor has been since the Islamic conquests and colonisations of their countries long ago)of the Christains of the Middle east, or of the Hindus and Buddhists of Pakistan.

[joe90]

If I am a Nazi then so, too, I suppose are all who believe in the Koran
- You'll also find similar material in The Old and New Testaments and various Jewish and Christian apocrypha, Roman Catholic Papal Bulls, and the like -
- so accoring to your definition David, everybody, everywhere are Nazis!
Unlike myself, Goebbals at least, would be impressed.

Instead of fulminating against me with the most farcical statements (it shows a lack of anything to say if anyone who disagrees with one is a Nazi)
- I've already told you to stop mis-representing my arguments. This is a typical nazi propaganda trick.

You are a neo-nazi
because you hate Muslims in the same way the old nazis hated Jews.

You are a neo-nazi
becuase you say the 'extreme left' are in league with Muslims - in the same way the old Bolsheviks were accused of being in league with the Jews.

You are a neo-bazi
because you say that civilisation is in danger (don't laugh everybody) from this 'extreme left'-Muslim alliance - in the same way Hitler claimed the civilisation of his day was in danger from the Bolshevik-Jewish alliance.

You are a neo-nazi
because you make assertions about people based on purely ethnic characteristics, rather than the content of their character and empirically verifiable facts about their communities and cultures. Saying people are dangerous and a threat based on your interpretation and selective readings of Holy Scripture is farcical.
British security services, for instance according to David, are to keep us all safe from outside threats using Holy Scripture and its exegesis!

Don't laugh now - David claims to be a highly-educated, civilised, modern, liberal-minded, enlightened, typical westerner who wants to be taken seriously!

As for history,
there were many communities and groups of people employed by the Nazis. Even Jewish Zionists famously supported the work of the Third Reich. This tells us nothing about People in general, or their various culture.

Vichy France collaborated with the Nazis and they controlled Syria. However, I have already covered most of the ground your baseless racist smears involving the Grand Mufti, Haj Amin, here -
Background on Pope Benedict and Islam
RuT
17 Sep 2007

and here -

Reality: Muslim parents are clamping down on any political activity
RuT
20 Sept 2006

Just so you know I've been over this before on this blog, as well as other nlogs.

[David]

I wasn't aware Muslims were a race. I've not said a word about anyone's race. The Nazi comments keep revealing a lack of real argument.I've simply pointed out that the Koran, the Ahadith and the early Islamic Lives of Mohammed are full of the most horrendous misogyny, homophobia and indeed racism ( against Jews - pigs and apes, remember?) as well as commands for Muslims to wage war against the human race until it is either converted, semi-enslaved or killed. It's not me who interprets it this way, it is many Muslims. But if words mean anything at all what ambiguity there is in, say, Mohammed's commandment" if anyone changes his Islamic religion, kill him" I don't know given that Muslims have always interpreted it as meaning that apostates should be killed. There is no equivalent to this and all the rest in other faiths ( unless you know about Christian terrorists blowing up planes). Very many Muslims believe these teachings. Look at the recently reported sermons in British Mosques. or the woman who converted to Christianity in the UK and has police protection and has moved house 45 times to escape her family. These teachings are the basis of 9/11, 7/7 and all the rest. If Joe 90 is on the left I don't understand why he seeks to defend this system, if that's what he's doing. He certainly doesn't try to explain it. This is a belief system which is anti freedom and anti democracy. It seems to share a lot in common with fascism. Why it should be defended in such visceral terms because it is a religion when, presumably, Joe 90 wouldn't defnd it if it was a political philosophy I don't know. Reforming Muslims have pointed out that there is much in Islamic belief which needs to change, especially the commandments to fight and subdue the rest of humanity. Pity, please, the Christian or Hindu of Pakistan or the Copt of Egypt a second class citizen in his own country.

[David]

I've looked now at the links in Joe 90's piece. I'm genuinely astonished and horrified at the hatred of Jews and Israelis ( people, not religious texts), the absolute obsession with,and hatred of, Israel which many of the posts reveal and ,indeed ,the mendacious rewriting of history in respect of pro Nazi Muslim leaders. I think I'll leave it there but I wonder what the average voter in Glasgow Central will make of the sub-SWP/Militant Islam diatribes posted by Joe 90 et al on this blog. Most of it far from the frontiers of social democracy to which I had thought the SNP subscribed.

[joe90]

You have said nothing new since you began to spew your racist hatred and bile, except to add more lurid details to your racist paranoid fantasies.

The characteristsics which you say indicate the threat Islam poses, can also be used to characterise Christianity, for instance.

Christianity has much history, many works, many Prophets, many movements to its name. Its collective body of sayings, practices and rituals have been deployed to justify atrocities, wars and genocide since it was first established - and still is to this very day.

Using religion to justify crime tells you nothing about religion and very little about criminal activity.

I wasn't aware Muslims were a race.
- So, because the Jews aren't a race then Hitler can't be a racist is what you are saying.

So David, by your own definition you are no bettter or worse than the old nazis - which makes you a neo-nazi still I'm afraid.

Why it should be defended in such visceral terms...
- I think you'll find, my little commandant, that is you who are the one who is guilty of this viz,
I'm genuinely astonished and horrified at the hatred of Jews and Israelis

I think it quite amusing however that someone who reckons Mulsims are just a bunch of nazis has yet to acknowledge that Nazism is a western European political movement and phenomena and has nothing to do with Asia and Asians!

...the mendacious rewriting of history in respect of pro Nazi Muslim leaders...
- That sounds like it could be a headline from today's edition of
The Daily Heil

Who knows, I might even watch tonights UK Channel 4 documentary -
Hitler's Favourite Royal
Channel 4's High Society season continues with the extraordinary but little known royal story of the British prince who became a convicted Nazi.

- but I doubt it.