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29 November 2007

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Matt Wardman

Osama

I've quoted your excellent article in full, and I hope you don't mind.

Matt

Osama

Not at all Matt, thanks.

Graham Mackenzie Spence

Well said Sir. This is the most sensible comment I have read on this ridiculous situation. Perhaps we should send a few to the Sudanese embassy.

veritas

Let's hope this is just a bit of empty sabre-rattling, more 'gas' than 'gaiters'. What concerns me however is the poisenous atmosphere that must have existed around this woman in that school. Why did it get this far? Somebody wanted to 'get' her. Why? If any one (of good will) was concerned about the issue itself or about Christian-Islamic relations, the sane thing to do would be to have a discreet word in her ear and tell her she'd made a faux pas.

Abu Sinan

There are several issues here. First, since when is it a crime to name a doll after a Prophet? Is this all they have to worry about in Sudan?

For me the most important issue here is how it is okay for a doll to be named after the first Prophet, Adam, but a crime to have him named Mohammed.

There are sections of the Muslim community who take veneration of Mohammed to extremes, often to the point of commiting shirk (associating others with God).

We are not Christian, we do not worship any man. The fact that some segments of the Muslim community cross this line on a regular basis is very worrying.

Mohammed was the seal of the Prophets, but he was just a man, no better or no worse than any other Prophet.

For me, as a convert to Islam, one of the great selling points of Islam is it's extreme monotheism and it's respect and veneration for ALL Prophets of the People of the Book. These people violate both of these ideas.

Frank J Dougan

I note that you take the cowardly Islamic view to allow your Muslim barbarians in Sudan to persecute a good British woman because of your 7th century persecution of civilized people. Surely this is an example of why Islamic teachers and propagandists should NOT be allowed into Europe and the reat of the sane world.

joe90

What about the plight British prisoners held in American concentration camps, such as Guantanamo Bay - where was the British government and British synthetic tabloid neo-nazi outrage then, and now?

As ever,
some informed opinions and interesting insights and observations from the Media Lens messege board on the usual subject of British hypocrisy and British tabloid neo-nazism -
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/thread/1196362661.html>Guilty verdict for teacher in Sudan, but what hypocrisy.
discussion thread started by RMS
29 Nov 2007

Whatever you do,
don't name yourself 'the lyrical terrorist' or the civilised Brits will put you in jail for terrorism!

Ted

I see the Sudanese liberals are now out in force -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm

The protesters gathered in Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace in the capital, many of them carrying knives and sticks.

Marchers chanted "Shame, shame on the UK", "No tolerance - execution" and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad".


Good post, Osama. It goes without saying (though I'm saying it) that British Muslims shouldn't feel any guilt, shame or any other feeling that they are somehow responsible. The fact that Sudan is a savage backwater is not their problem.

George Carty

Is Frank J Dougan just Naveen under a new alias?

joe90

There were 2,000 British liberals out in force the other night in Britian, in the very heart of the so-called British liberal democrary, Oxford and the Oxford Union, and it wasn't news to Rupert Murdoch -
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2007/11/30/jews-and-muslims-forge-a-bond-in-the-oxford-melee.html>Jews and Muslims forge a bond in the Oxford mêlée
posted by Martin sullivan
Islamophobia Watch
30 Nov 2007

Obviously,
British public rejection of Murdoch and all that his racist banner-headlines stand for isn't 'news-worthy'.

Kathleen

Having taught for several years in the Gulf and then earlier this year at Unity High School in Khartoum, the problem it seems is that many Westerners every year go and work in such countries through the lure of tax free salaries and a better climate. What the majority do not do though is actually learn anything about the religion and culture before going. Whether it be in lack of sense when it comes to dress or lack of sensitivity when it comes to issues specific to religion there is a kind of "well I am not altering my life in any way to accommodate these people" attitude.
Whilst I do believe the sentence is extreme Ms Gibbons is in fact only one in a long line of foreigners going to Sudan who seem to think that they can do and say as they please. Had she bothered to learn anything about Islam before going then she may not find herself in this situation now.
My sympathies lie with the students at Unity, they are the ones missing out on an education (at an excellent school) whilst this goes on.
Let it be a warning to others, take the time to actually learn about the country before you go and if you do not feel you can adapt then just don't go.

veritas

Sorry Kathleen, but Gibbons couldn't have been expected to know they would blow up at this because it is politically motivated. And anyway, who are you to surmise what she did and didn't know about Islam? The point is that somebody was out to get her. Apparently it was the school secretary. Now a compassionate, merciful Muslim would have had a word in Gillian's ear; but no, that wouldn't do; we must have revenge. We must have humiliation. Pride and honour are involved here.

Joe90, you'll be happy then. UK Muslims are banged up for 28 days for having a beard (it seems) and a British woman (without hijab) is banged up for 15 days in Khartoum over a teddy bear. Good trade off, no?

What was is Gandhi said - an eye for an eye, making the whole world blind?

joe90

veritas,
show me where I support the government in Khartoum and I'll be more than happy to agree with you.

Also
show me where I support the British government putting people in jail for having beards, and again, I'll be more than happy to agree with you.

As you won't be able to find this evidence, as none exists, then you're attempts to smear me show exactly what you really think about important issues such as truth and justice - the very ones you seem to think you know so much about and profess to be the champion of.

So much for your phoney Orwellian name, 'veritas'.

And veritas,
can you provide us all with this evidence that the government of Sudan has been elected by Muslim folk, everywhere, as their representatives?

Just becuase some government makes claims about being 'Muslim' doesn't mean to say they are true - or haven't you heard the one about Bush, Blair and Iraqi WMD yet?

I suppose, because George Bush waffles on about how christian he is, that makes him the representative of Christians everywhere on earth.

Mind you, Bush does claim to be 'the leader of the free world' - much in the same way you claim to be 'veritas'.

aineliva

Yes am pretty appalled by a government engaging in seeking international media attention, whilst busily engaged in genocide of some of it's citizens because they are "too black".

And clarify please, in my life I have encountered quite a few Mohameds and Muhameds, using either as a first name or surname. Is it that this is a toy, an effigy, I really do not understand where exactly Gillian crossed a boundary?

Kathleen

No I think you are wrong Veritas. I can not even begin to count the number of Westerners I have met during my years of working and traveling in the Middle East who first have a complete and utter lack of respect for Islam. And who, second, make absolutely no attempt to learn about it.
I am well aware of the school secretary situation and yes someone could have told Ms Gibbons, but given the track record of many foreigners in Sudan I just can not find sympathy for her. If she had actually learned something about the country she was going to then she would have had the common sense not to go with what the children suggested, and if she was still unsure she could have taken the initiative and checked to see if this was acceptable - she is a teacher afterall, thus we would expect her to be educated would we not? And considering she had been teaching in a Christian school in England she must have been exposed to different religions and what is and what is not acceptable.
Maybe I am being harsh but lets face it Sudan is not the sort of country you would go to without giving really careful thought and consideration before going, and in doing that I would assume that would mean actually taking the time to find out about dos and donts would it not?

joe90

Ted says -
The fact that Sudan is a savage backwater is not their problem.

The fact that Ted is a savage backwater and can be proven, is far more relevant, than anything that can be said about the good People of Sudan.

Don't forget, Ted is a supporter of rape and multiple child mass-murderers such as Tony Blair.

Some relevant background about 'savage backwaters' -
- In August 1998, President Clinton carried out a major act of international terrorism against Sudan by launching cruise missiles and destroying the 'Al-Shifa' (trans:- 'healing', I believe) pharmaceutical plant on the outskirts of Khartoum. Thankfully, it was at night and there were not as many casualties as there would have been if the day shift was working.

Al-Shifa supplied half of all Sudan's antibiotics and vetinerary drugs. In such a poor country the effects of this international outrage was catastrophic to the medical supplies for the Sudanese People and their agricultural subsistence-based livelihood.

The German Ambassador to Sudan, at the time of the US terrorist attack, is reported to have estimated the eventual death toll as "several tens of thousands seems a reasonable guess."
(Wermer DAum, "Universalism and the West" Harvard International Review, Summer 2001 taken from Stephen Zunes 'Tinderbox: US Middle East Policy and the Roots of Terrorism'(2003).

Imagine Sudan attacking and destroying half the pharmaceutical capacity of the US or UK, and you get some idea of the crimes the West carries out - and its brainwashed fanatical supporters have the cheek to refer to its victims as living in savage backwaters!

The reason Clinton attacked Sudan and Al-Shifa was because, he said it, was producing WMD, of which no evidence has ever been found or produced - quite the opposite, as I have pointed out above.

The real reason Clinton attacked Sudan, was to change the headlines in the American press the next day, which was going to carry stories about the President's indictment in the 'Monica Lewinsky Affair'. The other reason Sudan was chosen was because the Godfathers in Washington knew it couldn't defend itself or fight back.

As with western demonology in general, the victims of western propaganda are made out to be incredibly powerful, overwhelming threats to our very existence and the threat is immediate and about to descend upon us any day - reality, of course, is the exact opposite. These threats not only turn out to be non-existent, but these foreign demons can't even defend themselves, as in the recent case of Saddam and his WMD
cf Grenada; Panama; Vietnam; Libya; the totally unexpected collapse of the Soviet Empire, which was never much of a threat to western power, and pretty much kept to its own very small sphere of interest in eastern Europe

As Kathleen admirably says, background is everything, including backgorund in those eager to refer to others as living in 'savage backwaters' - which is an utterly repulsive thing to say about our fellow human beings.

Not only is Sudan not a 'savage backwater' but I think you'll find these 'savage backwaters' to be Washington, and the likes of London, whose horrific crimes are supported by human dregs such as Ted, who is amused at the thought of people being raped.

Ted

"the lure of tax free salaries and a better climate."

Yes, everyone is fighting to go to Sudan for the tax breaks and the endless sunshine. It's one long Club Tropicana. The Sudanese Embassy in London is practically fighting off the applicants.

Whit?!

Kathleen

I did not refer only to Sudan. I referred to the Gulf States here too.
And lets say Thank God, Sudan is not "one long Club Tropicana".
The point being as it is not Club Tropicana (!) one would think that anyone going there would be looking for a bit more of a cultural experience and have the sense to learn about it before they went.
Why not try visiting Sudan Ted, you may well be surprised. I have traveled around the world and it is certainly in my top 10 places to visit..

joe90

Well Ted,
let's have the actual figures for applicants for visas, which the Sudanese Embassy in London receives.

I only ask this, as you haven't provided any, but you seem to think because you are a brainwashed racist fanatic then you're racism is all that is required to convince others - who needs proof when you're an ugly racist like Ted.

veritas

joe 90 you are well known on this blog for your hysterical outbursts against anyone who remotely criticises you but for the record if you read my post I never said or even remotely suggested you supported the government of Khartoum. Where do you get that from?

What I have suggested is that treatment of cultures needs to be even-handed.

Why is all responsibility put on this woman for her 'error'? Didn't the Sudanese government have some obligation to inform foreigners it grants visas to what the rules are? A duty of care? An information pack? A helpline? Failing these devices, didn't somebody in that school or in the Sudanese education department or police or whomever have the responsibility on discovering her 'error' to put her straight before damning her for a sin she didn't know she committed? Her treatment was vindictive because certain people wanted it that way.

Why is responsibility to understand Islam only put on non-Muslims? Don't Muslims in a Muslim majority country have some kind of responsibility for explaining their ways at least to the extent that non-Muslims don't involuntarliy incriminate themselves? Or give offence?

Graham Mackenzie Spence

Hi Osama,

F.Y.I.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/what_sudan_needs_is_more_teachers/0015094

You have been quoted in this article: "Mirza Beg called the Sudanese decision a ”Travesty of Justice and a Caricature of the Islamic Law”. Osama Saeed pointed out that there is a popular Teddy Bear in Britain named “Adam the Prayer Bear” who recites verses from the Qur’an when his limbs and paws are pressed. There is also a puppet named Adam that is used in Sound Vision children’s videos right here in the U.S. And now we have a businessman in Arizona who is marketing Teddy Bear’s with the words “My name is Muhammad” embroidered across the chest. I am certain that no Muslim will object."

Best Regards
GMS

Ted

"have the sense to learn about it before they went."

What was there to learn? Don't name teddy bears Mohammed? If some of the children were named such, which sane, logical person would have considered it a problem? You seem to be suggesting that before working in such a country, one should get into the minds of the most illogical, backward, uneducated morons that live there, understand their point of view, and then go and work there. This seems to be above and beyond the requirements of any sensible adult who cannot reasonably be expected to know every lunatic viewpoint of the country they visit. The onus is on the host to extend some leeway, in that instance. Sadly, such generosity is in short supply in one of the top 10 holiday hotspots.

joe90

veritas
you claimed I'd be happy about the behaviour of the Khartoum government - but now you are saying that you weren't suggesting I supported the Khartoum government.

This is gibberish.

Then you claim I'm famous for not understanding people like you - well, at least you managed to get that bit right.


Then you claim, veritas, you are being put upon -
Why is responsibility to understand Islam only put on non-Muslims?

- Here am I, always told that here in the civilsed, unsavage backwater of egalitarian liberal, enlightened Britian that 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' -
- except, of course, where it involves the laws of 'savage backwaters', then excuses and plenty excusers become available almost overnight, appropriatley programmed and brainwashed by Rupert Murdoch and the British Government's Ministry of Truth, the BBC.

joe90

This seems to be above and beyond the requirements of any sensible adult who cannot reasonably be expected to know every lunatic viewpoint of the country they visit.
- Says someone who, when he wants to assess how civilsed a country is, uses the popularity amongst Club Tropicana and presumably Club 18-30 types, as a benchmark.

If you ask me, this sounds like a good selling point for the Sudan tourist industry - its unpopularity amongst the likes of Ted and his fellow, fun-loving, whacky, pranksters.

Mad you are Ted!

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