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25 April 2007

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Shavez

MacShane is an idiot. By his rationale on anti-Zionism being anti-Semitic, being anti-Al-Qaeda is Islamophobic.

Sunny

So, not very different then to Muslim groups who label any criticism against them or extremist groups as 'Islamophobic'.

Osama

Not entirely Sunny, as you'll find most Muslims if they encounter someone who disagrees with them politically e.g. being pro-war, will engage in the argument rather than resort to accusations of racism.

Yakoub Islam

Its not a case of any criticism of Muslims, though, its relentless criticism and misrepresentation that's the issue. "...the media as an instrument of public ideology demonizes Islam, portraying it as a threat to Western interests, thus reproducing, producing and sustaining the ideology necessary to subjugate Muslims both internationally and domestically" Elizabeth Poole (2002) 'Reporting Islam' (London: I B Tauris) p.17

George Carty

How would you respond to a Zionist on Umar Lee's weblog who claimed that "If Israel were to cease to exist, then the Jews would be assimilated out of existence within a century"?

Sunny

I know most Muslims do, I'm not sure of the politically engaged crew like Islamophobia Watch and others.
According to Abdurrahman from the MCB, challenging Muslim orgs (such as HuT, as I did on CIF) "feeds into Islamophobic discourse"... you can look up his comments below my piece on HuT or the email discussion with Inayat.

So frankly, you folks are all pretty much the same. MPAC constantly accuse others of Islamophobia while keep trying to main the distinction between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.

Frankly, for all of you, it's a losing battle since the debate has quickly moved turned into a war of slurs. Words like 'Zio-Nazi' and 'Islamofascist' are used so often, they've become a joke.

Sohaib

Well argued, Osama. I'm particularly interested in the 'comparison' between the concepts of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, and how these are used politically by the various sides.

But more than that, something that's been itching at me for a while, without my having seen any good analysis of it, is the apparent parallels between the distinctions made between Jews and Zionists, and the more recently developed distinction between Muslims and Islamists.

I don't think these are actually exact parallels, and I think we are justified to claim that we are not anti-Semitic while being anti-Zionist, but that the supposedly specific "anti-Islamist" discourse is in fact anti-Muslim and anti-Islam. But all this needs more semantic exploration.

James O

'challenging Muslim orgs (such as HuT, as I did on CIF) "feeds into Islamophobic discourse"... '

That's an over-simplification of their argument; an obsessive focus on reactionary islamism while being indifferant of, or supportive to, similar Jewish, Christian, Sikh and Hindu organisation is islamaphobic. Arguing that Muslims must combat said organisations and belief as a price of their acceptance in British society while the same demands are not made of other groups is also islamaphobic. Specifically, in the context of this article, the same demands are not made of Jews to disavow the reactionary aspects of Zionism and Fundamentalist Judaism as are made (by people including yourself) of Muslims vis-a-vis Islamism.

'Words like 'Zio-Nazi' and 'Islamofascist' are used so often, they've become a joke.'

Terms like Zio-Nazi are rarely used, although you occasionally hear them from some anti-zionist groups. Most of the Left only uses comparisons to Nazism with fully-fledged fascists, prefering the more accurate analogy with Apartheid. By contrast the notion of 'islamo-fascism; is a crucial ideological element in the neo-con / pro-war Left / Fascist justifications for war abroad and racism at home.

Sunny

Arguing that Muslims must combat said organisations and belief as a price of their acceptance in British society while the same demands are not made of other groups is also islamaphobic.

Challenging extremist groups should be part of building social cohesion, and should be part of any 'community organisation' that claims to be working towards that goal.
Are you saying orgs such as the BNP are not challenged? White people do most of the challenging there... as so Jews do of Israel (though hidden from wider public). This is also what the Independent Jewish Voices initiative was about.

No one is forcing anyone to confront extremists. But if people/organisations do so voluntarily it demonstrates how committed to social cohesion they are.

James O

Sunny, once again you've refused to answer the question put to you; It seems to be a symptomatic dishonesty.

'Are you saying orgs such as the BNP are not challenged?'

No, and there's no reading of my argument which could have led you to think this. To take one example, it is not demanded of members of the Jewish community that they disavow all support for reactionary and racist ideas as a litmus test for their inclusion into wider society. In fact most mainstream organisations which claim to represent the Jewish community - as the IJV petition pointed out - are committed on principle to support Zionism, the racist state it necessitates, and rallied to support the attack on Lebanon last year. There is no analogous political discourse which suggests as a consequence Jewish organisations are threatening 'social cohesion' or the similar claims made about the Muslim community, even less so about reactionary attitudes amonst other minority groups, and of course, the 'white' community.
In a theme extending from the far right to the pro-war Left, the demand is continually made that Muslim individuals and organisations must be responsible for policing their own communities as a price of acceptance and toleration, whereas - I repeat for your benefit - no similar demands are made of any other community. That is islamophobic.

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