Self-indulgence

Something of a breakthrough has happened, with Tony Blair labelling support for independence as being "self-indulgent". He was speaking about Sir George Mathewson's support for the SNP in the coming elections and his backing for Alex Salmond as the "outstanding" candidate for First Minister.

Sir George is regarded as the driving force behind the Royal Bank of Scotland's rise to being one of the biggest financial institutions in the world today. Bizarrely, Blair sought to deflect his position by saying that Sir George's view was not that of "real businesses". Not a good day for the speech writer.

But for me, the strangest part of the prime minister's response was to characterise it as being "self-indulgent". Unionist politicians have never seen any benefit to independence, but the prime minister's comments betray that there must be something to it now. Even if he was claiming selfishness of the part of Sir George, it would be safe to assume that others would also be similarly placed to benefit.

I suspect though that we are talking about self-indulgence in the broad sense. The kind of self-indulgence we're told that Scots would be engaging in if they kept all the oil wealth to themselves, as if it is normal for nations to go sharing their natural resources with others, much less have someone else "look after" it for them.

The mood within the SNP at the moment is understandably buoyant. Sir George's intervention marks something of a watershed:

"I do not share the fear of independence which is currently being fostered by those who have most to lose by a change in the status quo and those who see Scotland as a source of safe seats thus guaranteeing their rule over the UK."

Top business chiefs have never socked it to Labour in this way, with all the patronage and influence that came from a cosy relationship. This is the latest in a line of such figures who have been converted to the independence cause, and it is not surprisingly being taken as a sign of power slipping away.

Comments

[joe90]

Normally they are so badly worded that it isn't worthwhile taking aprt, but for what it's worth -
http://www.sundayherald.com/>The Sunday Herald
- when I took part in their 'reader's poll' today, this is how it stood -

VOTE
Should there be a referendum on Scottish independence?
Yes
83.1%
No
16.9%

Obviously, this shows that the readership of 'The Sunday Herald' are nothing but a bunch of no good, commie-pinko marxist socialist firebrands etc .

The poll doesn't ask the vital question however, if the dead should be allowed to be counted as a 'NO' if they aren't able to turn up, for whatever reason, to register their vote on the day of the referendum, as happened last time!

[Ted]

Would Scotland's 'oil wealth' (which has surely only got another 20-30 years, at best) really fund Scotland by itself? I'd be surprised if it did, to be honest, though I'm open to suggestions to the contrary. There's the financial sector in Edinburgh, I suppose.

I did have to laugh at that bumptious arse Salmond on radio this morning - 'I'll take mah orders fae the Scottish people!' Amusing because Salmond's entire 20 year political career has, in fact, been spent in London and that, IIRC, his stated position is that an 'independent' Scotland would in fact seek membership of the EU. So that'll be taking 'mah orders fae, er, Brussels!'.

[Osama]

Ted, I don't think anyone except UKIP argue that leaders of EU member states take orders from Brussels.

And no one is saying that the oil wealth would fund Scotland by itself. Lots of other countries manage without oil. It's just nice we have it, that's all. There's a trillion dollars still down there.

[Ted]

Is that a trillion dollars (are we all Yanks now?) of tax revenue? Or just a trillion dollars worth of oil?

Osama, you don't have to be a UKIP member to acknowledge the authority of the EU on many matters and its continuing quest to transfer more powers to itself. Now, if Salmond was arguing for Scotland to join the European Economic Area as members of EFTA, allowing us access to the single market without subjugation to the laws of Brussels, then his independence argument might carry a bit more credibility, in my view. But he's not.

[aineliva]

Oh I do love it when people show up "bumptious politicians" for what they really are, power hungry hypocrites. But then anyone who believes a politician, any politician, needs serious, serious, help.

"I did have to laugh at that bumptious arse "Salmond on radio this morning - 'I'll take mah orders fae the Scottish people!' Amusing because Salmond's entire 20 year political career has, in fact, been spent in London and that, IIRC, his stated position is that an 'independent' Scotland would in fact seek membership of the EU. So that'll be taking 'mah orders fae, er, Brussels!'."

[joe90]

Quite right Ted,
better us Scots subjugate ourselves to 'English Law' as we have been forced to do ever since the Union, when some corrupt and bribed Scottish aristocrats agreed to do something nobody else wanted (sounds familiar - Iraq, Trident and not a Brussel Sprout in sight) -
- in fact if the Union came under contract law it would be thrown out of court immediately, but then, that is the standard of most western diplomacy -

Just for instance, it isn't Scots Law that is the peculiarity, its English Law, which is completely at odds with the traditions of the rest of Europe.

Scots joining directly, once again, with their European sisters and brothers after so long, without having to go through the English capital should cause no great problems, except to the dying breed of Union Jocks.

America fought for independence against England and it doesn't seem to have hurt her economy.

[Ted]

Where is the 'independence' in joining with a largely unelected, hopelessly bureaucratic, notoriously corrupt (books not signed off by auditors since 1994?) organisation? Why is that an improvement, something desirable for Scots?

Where is the independence in continuing to submit, for example, to the discredited EU fisheries policy that has impoverished thousands of Scots? Is that the 'independence' the SNP seeks? The sad truth is that for most Scottish nationalists, 'independence' is simply a front for their anti-English prejudice and nothing to do with economic or legislative independence for Scots.

[Ted]

"except to the dying breed of Union Jocks."

Oh, and in nearly 100 years of universal suffrage, the 'Jocks' have always overwhelmingly voted for Unionist parties.

Get it round ye!

[joe90]

Er Ted,
maybe you should stick to wine guides...I think you even got that wrong (I think you meant to accuse the Prohpet(PBUHN) of drinking 'Palm Wine' and not 'Date Wine', as you called it).

We already are in the EU Ted, courtesy of your favourite One-Party Dictatorship of the Proletariat down in the publicly-subisided feeding troughs of the foreign English capital.

If the EU is as corrupt and ineffiencent as Rupert Murdoch your intellectual guru makes out, then why did your favourite one-party dictatorship based in England, force the rest of us to join the EEC-EC-EU?

And why won't your favourite One-Party Dictatorship give the British electorate a referendum on the issue of EU membership, if it is so much more democratic efficient etc than the rest of the EU?

So much for Racist Murdoch, wine guides and 'British democracy' then.

And as most people know, the fish stocks have been wiped out by the usual psychopathic institutions of uncontrolled corporate capitalist greed - which destroys everything in its path in pursuit of short-term profits, and screw everybody else including fishing communities.

'independence' is simply a front for their anti-English prejudice
- you're certainly the expert when it comes to prejudice and ignorance, I wouldn't know much about it. Cetainly it seems to me its the English-based institutions, most notoriously the BBC, who are the bigots and are English imperialists and only have themselves to blame if people are sick of listening to them whine on about 1966 and how Wembly is the 'home of football' etc etc ad nauseum!

The last World Cup Final was brilliant - BBC Radio Scotland managed to get a Scottish commentary team to commentate on the Final live on radio! No pro-English bias and ignorance anywhere in sight!

And in a 100 years most other countries have got rid of 'Home Rule' from the 'Home Counties' - I don't know if you've noticed that Ted? No more British Empire!

[Ted]

"I think you even got that wrong (I think you meant to accuse the Prohpet(PBUHN) of drinking 'Palm Wine' and not 'Date Wine'"

I think you've been at the moonshine yourself, Joseph, as, even by your standards, this is impenetrable nonsense!

"We already are in the EU Ted"

We are indeed, unfortunately. As a Eurosceptic conservative, the major constitutional change I would instigate in the UK is separation from this disreputable organisation. I would like a major political party to include such a separation as part of its manifesto.

Now, just to clarify, you would support 'independence' from London but 'dependence' on Brussels for the Scots?

"And why won't your favourite One-Party Dictatorship give the British electorate a referendum on the issue of EU membership"

There already has been one.

"fish stocks have been wiped out"

Have they? Who said this then? "In Scottish waters the vast majority of stocks are booming and some are even at record levels. Of the key stocks in our waters, the situation facing North Sea cod is by far the exception rather than the rule." Er, the SNP's fisheries spokesman Richard Lochhead. So that'll be why the SNP support an EU policy which leaves fishermen in Peterhead, er, staying at home. Joined-up thinking, again, from the SNP, it seems.

"Radio Scotland managed to get a Scottish commentary team to commentate on the Final live on radio! No pro-English bias and ignorance anywhere in sight!'

No, merely pro-Scottish bias and ignorance. Much more preferable!

'And in a 100 years most other countries have got rid of 'Home Rule' from the 'Home Counties''

And what a success it has been for them. I rather think the former Rhodesians, for one, would crawl on their hands and knees for 'Home Counties' rule again. Anything but 1500% inflation, don't you agree?

[joe90]

I thought being the self-proclaimed expert wine-buff that you are Ted, you wouldn't need any further explanations as to the difference between 'date' and palm wine - get out your good wine guide and look it up Ted.

We are in the EU because of your anti-democratic pals in Westminister but....its the EU which is corrupt and it's Scots who are anti-English etc etc...
...yes I know, it's everybody else who is to blame. You are typical whinging Union Jock. Your corrupt pals make all the decisions and everybody gets the blame. How typically British - total hypocrisy.

The UK has wasted billions butchering nearly a million Iraqs and Afghanis - has just ordered more nuclear MD which breaks its treaty obligation towards the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty ie its highly illegal. Has just wasted £2.4 billion on a dodgy military communication system, is wasting billions destroying the NHS etc etc-
- and yet you prefer the One-Party British Dictatorship to follow its American orders rather than participate with its closest neighbours in the rest of Europe.

And when was this EU referendum Ted - can't recall it.

And the last time I looked the North Sea was almost empty of Cod stocks - it is doubtful if they'll ever be able to recover and are inactaul danger of becoming extinct just like the equally famous Cod fishinggrounds of Georges Bank, off the Canadian-US East Coast. So give me a reference for this highly optimistic account and forecast for the future of the edible fish species around our coasts?

Having a Scottish football commentary team commentating on a football match is merely Scottish prejudice and bigotry! Well that's a new one on me - we had better get English commentators to commentate on the full SPL card this Saturday then, and get English commentators for the Scotland match against Georgia.

Better still, why don't we just get the whole of the England game broadcast live by the BBC this Saturrday, as per usual, and just 30 minutes of highlights of the Scotland game around midnight, as per usual, on the BBC. That way us Scots won't be accused of anti-English bias by Racist Murdoch and his dwindling readership.

I see Ted - high inflation in Zimbabwe today is linked to the fact it isn't part of the British Empire anymore?
Ah, the benefits of the white man's burden of the British Empire!
Well that's Africans for you - nothing but a bunch of ignorant bigoted savages, just like us Scots!

Just to clairify - a 'eurosceptic conservative' - ha ha ha ha - pure brainwashing - where did you read that?
I can't see someone with as little brainpower or imagination a you being able to come up with such big long words as that.

Me, Ted - I am a Celtic, Republican, Die Hard-No Surrender, North European-West European, North West Atlantic, Anarcho-Syndicalist Picto-Scot that leans towards Ecology-Green Movement with a strong David Hume streak of sceptical self-awareness, Schopenhauerian One-ness, with an undercurrent of Kantian something other that is still crystallising out of an ocean of brilliant possibilities etc etc - in a nutshell.

[joe90]

erratum
correction in bold

North East Atlantic

[Ted]

" thought being the self-proclaimed expert wine-buff"

ROTFLMAO! I've still no idea what you're talking about!

" We are in the EU because of your anti-democratic pals in Westminister but."

I wish we weren't there either but it was put to a referendum, the British people accepted it, and the British people haven't, since then, voted in a party intent on withdrawing us from said organisation or even putting it to another referendum.

Now, are you supportive of Alex Salmond's stance of 'independence' from London but 'dependence' on Brussels?

[joe90]

When was the referendum Ted - I can't remember it?

You don't want to be part fo the EU, have the Euro currency and all that, but you don't mind following your American orders, isn't that right Ted?

You don't mind wasting millions of innocent lives and billions of taxpayers money on the 'sepcial relationship' with the Yanks?

You don't mind if Blair-Cameraon act like Hitler, do you?

You don't mind being part of AMerica's poodle NATO, do you Ted?

[joe90]

Big apologies Ted -
- I'm getting you mixed up with someone else regarding Palm Wine etc
http://www.osamasaeed.org/osama/2007/02/yesterdays_chan.html#comment-28884957>Posted by: John Palubiski | 06 February 2007 at 07:14 PM

all the best!

[Ted]

The referendum for the EU was 1975.

I don't particularly want the Euro, nor to follow American orders, nor go to war that is against British interests. I would continue with NATO membership, I have to say. Would Alex Salmond?

[Osama]

Ted, I don't see much point in engaging in this argument if you see no difference in the relationship that Scotland has with Westminster and what we have with Brussels.

What is intellectually incoherent is your call to separate ourselves from the EU, but thinking that all is good with the far more overbearing Westminster Union.

[joe90]

The EU didn't exist in 1975 Ted, that referendum was about something related but very different indeedy.

As for the Euro,
the only reason it isn't being introduced into the US 51st state here on America's unsinkable aircraft carrier, is because British vassals (as we still live in a feudal state) will be able to see how much we are getting ripped-off by, compared to our European sisters and brothers.

Everything in Britian is more expensive than the rest of Europe. Probably the most energy-rich nation in Europe and Scotland can't even afford, so we are told, to keep its beloved elderly warm in winter!

We Scots have had the worst social problems in western Europe, since G-d knows when, and these subsidy-junky Union Jocks have never lifted a finger to sort them out.

The EU has helped with south Italy, parts of Portugal and Spain where deprivation was comparable to that of the Scots, shovelled off their own land and into miserable central belt housing schemes (the similar social phenomenon in England is refered to as 'the enclosures act'). Now we just stand out on our own, with all the worst social indicators in western Europe and the West as a whole, comparable only to parts of the capitalist utopia of Yankland and its awful inner-cities.

The good old Republic of Ireland was in a similar, sorry, deprived state as Scotland, before it got shot of the British Empire. Comparing and contrasting Ireland's social progress with Scotland over the same period since Irish (partial) indepedence is embarrassing.

The real choice for the British government is between -
1 - being an American poodle and following its orders (cf trident replacement, NATO, Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel etc etc).
2 - and being part of the EU.

What would an independent Scotland be like? - well that would be up to us. And as anyone knows who cares about these things - the smaller the democracy, the better it works and the more representative its governments tend to be when it comes to its citizens own views.

Big democracies don't work, especially in the west - look at the US and the UK - corrupt one-party dictatorships with empty formailsed rituals known as 'democratic elections' that nobody in the right minds take seriously, especially the US.

All the best Ted mate!

[aineliva]

"America fought for independence against England and it doesn't seem to have hurt her economy."

Indeed, and it's the USA's economy that drives her aggression in the rest of the world. Didn't do much for integrity and principles, but loads for the economy

[aineliva]

"The good old Republic of Ireland was in a similar, sorry, deprived state as Scotland, before it got shot of the British Empire. Comparing and contrasting Ireland's social progress with Scotland over the same period since Irish (partial) indepedence is embarrassing."

And remained in a sorry deprived state on many levels until the advent of the EEC, Joe90, so that's not really much of a point.

[Ted]

Osama, to counter-balance Sir George Mathewson's support for the SNP, it appears we've discovered the biggest vote-loser for the SNP - yourself. ;-) Comments section of http://freedomandwhisky.blogspot.com/ -

I'm really uneasy about the SNP. Some of their Muslim councillors in the past have been shall we say very militant. Osama Saeed for one now promoted to the MCB organised demos to harass Israeli footballers at Ibrox, another Bashir, stormed St Alberts Primary school to remove children from worship and then at the height of Israeli/Lebanese hostilities the SNP sent financial aid to a Lebanese hospital which was "unaware" rockets were hidden under the building.
i'm afraid my previous fondness for the SNP is somewhat coloured by the determination to secure the Muslim block vote in the coming elections.
I'm not sure they represent the interests of indigenous Scots.

[Matt]

I may be naive and I am English, but I can't see what's wrong with Scotland being a totally independant country. The UK made sense for Scotland 200 years ago when the country was pretty much bankrupt and needed the english to help them out. But that no longer applies today. What are people afraid of? With the umbrella of the EU for support, surely the time is right?

[joe90]

..the MCB organised demos to harass Israeli footballers at Ibrox..
- I think you'll find it was the Gers fans who were doing all the harrassing Ted, if memory serves me correctly about the game. The whole of the 90 minutes lots of shouting and stuff was directed against the Israeli players by the Ibrox faithful. In my experience, that's normal for a football match and what footballers have to put up with. Compared to that, everything else is small beer.

I don't suppose you have a reference for the Lebanese 'hospital used as weapons dump' libel, do you Ted?
I only ask, as this is a staple lie of those who support the racist war crimes regime of Israel.

Some of us Yanko-sceptics are uneasy about the One Party Dictatorship of the Proletariat based in the English capital Ted, and their Yanko-phile ways - here is the latest opinions from the great unwashed British public, but what do they know anyway!

Iraq War Survey
20 Mar 2007

Q.1 Do you think the United States and Britain were right or wrong to take military action against Iraq in 2003?

Right - 29% Wrong - 60%

Q.5 Do you think the result of the war in Iraq is that Britain is now a safer place, less safe or is there no real difference one way or the other?

Safer place - 5% Less safe - 55% Makes no difference - 37%
Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/20_03_07_iraq_poll.pdf>Iraq Poll BBC-ISM 20 03 2007 PDF

There doesn't seem to be any questions about Osama Saeed - or the 'terrorist supporting' SNP, who actually suppport the British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan (which is why they want to see them all back home safe sound where they belong) - or people who 'storm' primary schools - or non-indigenous life-forms either, I'm afraid.

By the way Ted, about all things non-indigenous to Scotland - where exactly is the British parliament - where is the BBC, the British military, the British Civil Service etc etc, where are all these institutions based again, in Scotland or some other country?

[Ted]

Joe, I directed you to where the comments came from (they're not mine). They're in the comments box of http://freedomandwhisky.blogspot.com/ under the story 'Has the SNP hit the jackpot?'

[joe90]

Sorry Ted,
I didn't realise you were just parroting accusations, without investigating their veracity yourself, before you passed them on to others.

So they are nothing to do with you then - you are just an empty echo chamber.

Perhaps you could pass on my comments to blog in question then, if you'd be so kind.