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03 February 2007

Comments

Martin

Ah, the bitter pus of Satan!

Sold by Muslims in corner shops!

aineliva

Yes, saw the programme and Dr Mulla did a good job. Now the government needs to do theirs.

Donald Maclean

Couldn't agree more. The Scottish Exec took a bit of a kicking about the smoking ban in pubs, but it made perfect sense for smokers, and for non-smokers alike. The cynical multinationals who rake in the cash from tobacco and alcohol products should be reined in, big time. However, as half the cash flows conveniently into the Treasury coffers, I won't be holding my breath.

John Palubiski

You're such a tease, Osama!

There is more salvation in a SINGLE glass of draft beer than in all the hadith combined!

May I just pry your nose off the pages of the Koran a moment and ask you a very straightforward question?

Why is it that cultures that imbibe are more successful, more dynamic, more creative, more advanced, more prosperous and more egalitarian with a longer life expectancy to boot?

They're also more fun!

Now if you could muster the humility ( yes, humility!) to knock back a few and ponder that REAL-LIFE negation of your beloved Koranic "wisdom", you might actually learn something.

Alcohol isn't the probleme, drunkeness is, and drunkeness is a BEHAVIOR, not a SUBSTANCE.

And as for the "substance"?

Science has proven time and time again that a couple glasses of wine (moderation) every day goes a long ways towards improving one's cardiovascular health. The evidence for this, though irritating and infuriating to a *true believer*, is abundant and irrefutable!

What's more, frivolity and fun are the midwives of creativity and innovation.....two qualities quasi-absent from large areas of the Islamic world....

Osama

Odd linkages between booze, fun, creativity and strong societies. Tell it to David Beckham, Russell Brand, Eric Clapton, Billy Connelly, Elton John, J Lo, Jonathan Ross, Frank Skinner and many others that adopt a teetotal stance. Pretty creative people, I'm sure you'd agree.

Regarding health, the Qur'an actually said there were benefits in wine, but:

"They will ask thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." (2:219)

John Palubiski

Every individual you cite is a non-Muslim, Osama.

What's more, their most creative periods correspond to those times when they imbibed.

Solme, though, burn to brightly and then end up burning out.

Nonetheless, better to burn brightly than not at all.

When they took the decision to stop, though, their Christian faith was there to help them.

And that decision to stop presupposes the right and the freedom to start.

As for the Muslim angle, you may not realise it, Osama, but many reliable history sources claim that for the last 20 years of his life Mohammed drank great quantities of date wine, wine that he had his wives prepare.

Just as a non-judgemental aside, a "tee" is a small object upon which one sits a golf-ball

"Tea", on the other hand, is a beverage.

Sohaib

Wheesh John, have you never heard the word "teetotal"? Just Google it man. Google is a search engine. That's like a sort of friendly internet finder thingy.

I'll sidestep the claims about alcohol and success, but take you up on the supposed "many reliable history sources". Please furnish us with references, or retract the ridiculous lie.

John Palubiski

If you've any questions about beverages, Sohaib, then perhaps you should talk to these people!

A meeting can easily be arranged...

http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?rep=2&aid=352375&sid=ZNS

joe90

Or you can try Alcoholics Anonymous,
- or abused wives and partners,
- or NHS wards stuffed to the gunnels with human wreckage due to alcohol,
- or try the police for the victims of passive-drinking and alcohol fuelled violence,
- or the 10s of 1000s of premature deaths every year due to alcohol, compared to which death due to illegal drug abuse is statistically speaking, zero or can just be discounted as interference.

It's all very creative and lively, at the weekends, in Scottish Accident and Emergency Units!

John Palubiski

Drunkeness is a sin, Joe.

"Intoxication", in some cases, is another matter!

joe90

Here is me thinking drunkeness was just a jolly jape and wheez indulged in by poets, painters and those of the arts and crafts community, as well.

No wonder hard liquor, the entry point for most serious drug users and abusers, is peddled on TV and its promotion is sanctioned by the government - how else are the drug-barons and drug-pushers of the gazillion pound profit a year alcohol industry to make a killing if they can't push it on schoolchildren, and impressionable teenagers, sitting at home watching TV?

I think alcohol accounts for 50,000 premature deaths in Britain per year.

Still, as long as people know drunkeness is a sin, much like Tony Blair, the Christian, who knows lying is a sin, and so is mass-murder as well, I believe.

Sohaib

I've no questions except what your "many reliable history sources" are for the claim of the Prophet (on whom be peace) drinking wine. Your link didn't work.

John Palubiski

Soahib, name me one Abrahamic prohet who WASN'T a boozer.

I came across the reference to the date wine while parusing a first-rate wine guide.

The guide stated that the Islamists in Algeria exempted the country's wine industry from various sharia provisions because that industry is both large and profitable, and they invoked Mohammed's penchant for consuming date-wine as a justification for that exemption.

They even armed themselves with a couple of fatwas.

You claim to be an expert at "googling", Sohaib, so do say ten minutes of research, or at least talk to the true believers in Algeria


I think alcohol accounts for 50,000 premature deaths in Britain per year.

Actually, Joe, about 1% of children in the UK are born with fetal alcohol syndrome.

Isn't that awful?

They have both physical and behavioral problemes.

In many Arabo-Muslim countries, though, it is estimated that about 30% of babies born have some symptoms of inbreeding.

The symptoms of inbreeding include both physical and behavioral problemes similar in scope to those of alcohol fetal syndrome.

Any thoughts there?

What sort of "intoxication" would create and justify such an appalling situation?

Osama

ROFL! So in Palubiski-world "many reliable history sources" = a wine guide.

joe90

Why don't you try writing a book on the topic. Call it 'The Joys of Alcohol'.

Which could join the rest of your inconsiderable knowledge you have displayed on this blog. Areas such as -
- Tony Blair's war crimes,
- Byzantine history,
- the history of the medieval crusade movement and the Crusader States

First you are a wine and alcohol expert, especially its uses in The Bible - now you are claiming to be an expert on genetically transmitted recessive-gene diseases and disorders abroad.

Is there no end end to your talent?

ps
does anybody know what bevvying has to do with human in-breeding?

I can't help thinking our man John here, might be the victim of one of these complaints himself.

Sohaib

Oh John! You have surpassed yourself!

Do you take the Algerian Islamists as a reliable historical source in general?

This doesn't even merit a trip to Google.

John Palubiski

Sohaib, cut and paste the website I provided into the address bar of your web-browser. Take a peek at the future.

Sohaib

Oh, can't stick to the subject of your completely false and baseless claim about wine? Oh well.

Speaking of conversion, here's something interesting.
http://www.fosis.org.uk/frontpage/images/idristawfiquk.jpg

The man in question wasn't a comedian though, he was a Vatican-trained priest, like many other highly educated Christians I could name (e.g. Jerald F. Dirks, whose book I just read) who chose Islam.

Their reasons are far more insightful than "desire for a God closer to [them] than Allah"!

It's an interesting subject - but nothing to do with this thread. I don't want to discuss it with you here further. Feel free to peruse this page if you wish:
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1

jock paboobski

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article623634.ece. it may not be nice what happened to him but islam isn't being wiped out yet...

alcohol - directly responsible for 5000 deaths a year in england and wales, and is implicated in a further 33,000 deaths a year.
The 3rd highest risk to health in developed countries
Is a factor in 20-30% of all accidents
Costs the NHS £3billion a year
1/4 of medical admissions is alcohol-related

alky

"When they took the decision to stop, though, their Christian faith was there to help them."

Not they didn't. Russell Brand thanks the hare krishnas for helping him recover and elton john wrote an artice in a newspaper last year blasting religion.

AG

^ I think you mean no they didn't ;-) It should also be noted 1/3 of drivers in car accidents are above statutory alcohol levels, and on Saturday nights it's 3/4

John Palubiski

Sohaib, as I stated earlier it is infuriating for a true believer to discover that many things "harem" are in fact beneficial to human health.

Prescribing a glass or two of wine is common partice among doctors treating patients with heart probelems. Red wine in particular contains flavanoids that destroy plaque and the alcohol relaxes the arteries and gives the heart a breather.

That's a FACT.

If you're unable to deal with a few simple cases where science trumps the koran, then how will you ever adapt to modernity?

What's more, cultures which consume moderate amounts of alcohol are more advanced, more egalitarian, more prosperous and have LONGER life expectancies.

Those, too, are FACTS.

And as for creativity; well I'm quite sure you're aware that the islamic world invents/contributes practically nothing these days.

There's also somethang that has to be said about Muslim sobriety.

This isn't a sobriety born of discipline or moral enlightenement. Rather it's an avoidence of alcohol stemming from fear, ignorance and especially superstition.

You eschew the consumption of alcohol not because you're a paragon of virtue, but because you're a coward who fears alcohol's effect and the terrifying possibilities that "effect" presents.

You gripped by a chilling fear your faith will evaporate amongst the heady vapours of a few belts of whiskey, aren't you?

I even hesitate to even use the term "sobriety" to describe such a mental state.

joe90

In what passes for arguments in the above comment,
replace the drug 'alcohol' with the drug 'heroin' and see how it reads then.

As we all know, heroin was maufactured and advertised at the same time as its stable-mate aspirin.

Coca-cola just isn't the same since the company stopped putting in that little special pick-me up ingredient, so enjoyed by the honest worker in the morning, before they clocked on for their shift. I am talking about where the soft drink gets its name from - cocaine.

By the way, it's an interesting fact that Scotland is the only country in the world where the most popular flavour of fizzy drink isn't cola. That's what I call true democracy and cultural diversity.

jock paboobski,
I don't suppose you have the latest combined profits figure that the alcohol drug barons and drug pushers made last year in Britian?

How much is spent by these drug barons pushing their drug via advertising and sponsorship here in the UK?

Osama

John, and you just can't take it that the Quran acknowledged that there are benefits in alcohol centuries before scientists discovered it.

That is a FACT.

It asserts though that those benefits are outweighed by the harm. Which is fairly obvious - 22,000 deaths a year plus a whole range of social problem vs a little bit of a healthier heart if you manage it in moderation.

BTW the names I mentioned above were deliberately non-Muslims to show this is not simply a religious argument. All are currently teetotal and apart from Clapton and Elton John, at the top of their creative prowess. The FACT also is that if alcohol was discovered today it would be banned along with other drugs.

John Palubiski

Osama, Muslim countries have much lower life expectancies, and so as a Muslim why don't you do your co-religionists a favour and investigate as to why that is so?

Countries that have traditionally consumed moderates amounts of wine (ie Italy, France and spain) have higher life expectancies and lower rates of cardiovascular disease than ALL islamic countries.

The studies that irrefutably prove this are what is known in The West as "SCIENCE-BASED".

Science can, and often does, contradict, negate and refute many of the more ridiculous *celestial certainties* that Islam has mistakenly propagated as fact.

You speak of intoxication, but what sort of sectarian drunkeness prevents a rational individual from embracing irrefutable facts that have been proven over and over and over again using scientific method?

You may not realise it, but in you mind the Koran trumps the critical thought that informs and fuels modern progress.

Careful you don't careen off the road....

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