What's Islamophobia?

When you're afraid of a piece of meat because it happened to have had God's name pronounced over it in Arabic.

Comments

[Liam Murray]

An over-the-top reaction I agree - but couldn't I reasonably ask - "What is fundamentalism / extremism?" and answer someone who won't eat meat UNLESS it happens to have had God's name pronounced over it in Arabic?

[Osama]

No Liam, because they would not be outside the school protesting about a decision taken by the majority, or bombarding the school with hate filled phone calls. "Extremists" like me, according to your definition, would just take the vegetarian option.

[Osama]

PS Sad to see you're no longer blogging. I was amused at one of your reasons being that your standard of writing was not on a par with Orwell or Chomsky's. By that token, we should all give up. While I'm at it, I'm nowhere near Dennis Bergkamp or Thierry Henry at football so retirement here I come!

[Mere Muslim]

As-salamu 'alaykum,

Well part of the problem is that some of these people might be Christians who have been duped (i.e. brainwashed by Islamophobes) into believing that "Allah" is some pagan god...thus they don't want to eat meat that's sacrificed to Him. For those who don't know, anti-Islamic propaganda of this nature is close to being ubiquitous these days (i.e. Allah is a "pagan moon god", as wall as the statements my General Boykin and Franklin Graham).

Unfortunately, Muslims are partly to blame for this since many (if not most) of us have misconceptions about not only the word "God" , but about the English language in general. Indeed, many Muslims--even in da'wah presentations to people who don't know even a word of Arabic--continue to use Arabic terminology in an attempt to explain Islamic beliefs.

So how would Muslims react if a government school wanted to serve only kosher meat in which the name for the Divinity had been pronounced in English or Hebrew, but not Arabic? Some Muslims, I'm sure, would be offended by this (even though this is a hypothetical question, since Jews don't pronounce God's name when they slaughter).

However, if it was another religion--a non-Ahl al-Kitab religion--that worshipped a "different god" (as if there's more than one?), many Muslims would be concerned...and they'd probably be right in doing so. On the other hand, I think it's a bit narrow and parochial (and smacking of the exclusivism that the Qur'an condemns in some Jews) to say that we'll only accept meat that's slaughtered with the word "Allah", but not with "God", "Khuda", "Dios" or any other word that means the Creator and Sustainer of every atom in the universe.

So to me, this is just another example of what a bad job we've done in showing Jews, Christians and others in the West that Islam is part of the same Abrahamic tradition that they belong to. If more people understood this, I'm sure these protests wouldn't have occured.

I've written a lot on this subject, which remains a pet peeve of mine, on my blog and most of the postings can be found here:

http://www.mereislam.info/labels/Allah.html

Wa Allahu 'alim...

[Liam Murray]

Thanks Osama - just got tired of the 'hamster's wheel' of having to post every day, comment elsewhere, link to anyone who links to you etc.

Enjoying the break and just commenting on and reading the few blogs I actually enjoy (if not always agree with!) of which you are one!

May come back soon but looking to do more of a group thing.

Cheers.

[aineliva]

I doubt that the real issues here are meat or racism. The real issues are about everybody's right to dissent, to voice a dissenting opinion and to feel that one is heard.

Just because it happens to be a Muslim School, and halal meat is the lynchpin of the protest, doesn't make it racist, even if it is over the top or a storm in a teacup.

[Puffy]

It's NOT a Muslim school. That's the point. Maybe parents object to animals being slaughtered in a barbaric fashion unsuitable for the 21st Century.

[Osama]

I'm sure you love Muslim schools Puffy. The point here is that there should be no objection to minorities (majority in this school though) being provided services according to need. If these protesters want something for themselves then let them campaign positively for that rather than seeking to deprive other people.

[John Palubiski]

Osama, had you read the article you'd realise that the protesters couldn't care less what mumbo-jumbo had been pronounced over an animla's carcass.

What they are protesting are the dubious and inhumane methods that Halal slaughter inevitably involves.

See the difference?

Just as you won't eat pork for religious resons, these people are against the consummption of halal meat out of ETHICAL considerations.

Were someone to slip some ground pork into you hamburger, Osama, and not tell you until said hamburger had been consumed, the revulsion you'd feel would be very akin to the revulsion these parents feel at seeing their children force-fed Halal meat.

Now you invoke the hoakey concept of "islamophobia" as your only response to this.

But were you to protest the pork in that hypothetical burger (and protest you would!) would it then be OK to label you "porkaphobic"?

Would it be appropriate to then sentence you to court-ordered "sensitivity training"....say three weeks working in a pig-sty?

Of course not!!

These people find halal products repulsive because of the way in which these animals are slaughtered.

Yeah, I know, Jews have kashruth, but those products are slaughtered under much cleaner conditions and they are never, EVER pushed on the general public or forcebly placed in the cafeterias of pubic institutions.

Do you see the difference there?

[Abu Sinan]

There is more than a bit of Islamophobia here, mixed with ignorance.

I wonder if any of these protesting parents have ever looked at the food they eat? If they see a "K" symbol on them, or a list of other symbols, then much the same thing has happened to this food they eat, except it was done by Jews.

Most foods in the West, if they do not contain pork, or meat mixed with dairy, will have the Jewish kosher mark on it. To do this the companies must pay a Rabbi to come and inspect the food and the equipment used to make it.

So these same protestors are eating food, day in and day out, that is tested for infractions of Jewish dietary law, and then paid for the fee to have the mark on the food.

So either they are ignorant to the fact that they are actually paying to have the food that they eat tested to see if it is kosher, or they dont mind it if Jews do it, just hate it when Muslims do something kind of the same.

My guess? A combination of the two.

http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/kosher_Food_Symbols.htm

[Abu Sinan]

There is more than a bit of Islamophobia here, mixed with ignorance.

I wonder if any of these protesting parents have ever looked at the food they eat? If they see a "K" symbol on them, or a list of other symbols, then much the same thing has happened to this food they eat, except it was done by Jews.

Most foods in the West, if they do not contain pork, or meat mixed with dairy, will have the Jewish kosher mark on it. To do this the companies must pay a Rabbi to come and inspect the food and the equipment used to make it.

So these same protestors are eating food, day in and day out, that is tested for infractions of Jewish dietary law, and then paid for the fee to have the mark on the food.

So either they are ignorant to the fact that they are actually paying to have the food that they eat tested to see if it is kosher, or they dont mind it if Jews do it, just hate it when Muslims do something kind of the same.

My guess? A combination of the two.

So John, go out to your local Tescos and tell us how much food, that could in theory conform to Jewish dietary laws, do not have the "Kosher" stamp on it?

I am afraid, you'll find very little. What is the population of Jews in the UK? So some 95% of the population is actually forced to eat food whose production is overseen by religious clergy from a faith to which they do not belong?

So yes, it IS pushed on the public because almost ALL food in Western countries that can be Kosher does pay the fee and okay the supervision it takes to get the "Kosher" label on their food.

But see, the difference between you and I is that I have no issue with this.

http://www.hanefesh.com/edu/kosher_Food_Symbols.htm

[abu sinan]

Sorry, add more to the first bit, but didnt think it printed it.

[John Palubiski]

Abu, Osama claimed these individuals were "Islmophobic" because they'd objected to having god's name pronounced over an animal in Arabic.

Their objections revolved around issues concerning halal slaughter and the cruelty that can involve. They couldn't have cared less what prayers were recited over the animal.

His accusations are utterly baseless and amount to a kind of drive-by slander

I'm aware that some food products have the letter "K" on the label indicating it is kosher.

Jewish dietary laws, though, are for more wide-ranging than those of islam and cover a much greater variety of food products.

Contrary to the old anti-semitic canard people don't "pay" when something is declared kosher. If a food company desires to have a product declared kosher it needs to obtain the permission of a Jewish religious authorities. Even at that, the demand to declare NON-MEAT products "Kosher" usually originates within the Jewish community itself and almost always involves newer, highly processed foods.

The "K", though, is only a signal to observant Jews that this food MAY be eaten.

Kosher meat products...and this posting is about meat products ONLY... are generally available at the Kosher butcher; they are never distributed in or aimed at the larger society.

Because Judaism's dietary rules cover so many more products than those of Islam, that doesn't make it hypocritical of individuals or institutions to offer those Kosher NON-MEAT foods while refusing to offer halal meat.

Jews never demand that the meat of animals slaughtered according to Jewish rites be IMPOSED on public cafeterias.

[Abu Sinan]

John,

I dont know whether you are lying or simply misinformed. The organisations that certify foods as "Kosher" do indeed charge a fee for their services.

You will find that a WIDE range of foods in the USA and Europe are "Kosher" certified. Probably the majority of foods that can be certified are. I know because I have lived in these places and actually looked to see if it was the same in these countries.

It most certainly is. So again, people are being forced to buy foods that have been certified as "kosher".

How are they being forced? Because the majority of food that can be listed and certified as "Kosher" is indeed marked "kosher". You would have a rather hard time eating what you wanted to in the West if you avoided every food item that was labeled as "kosher".

John, it is amazing that with the internet out there you can still be as ill informed as you are.

Here is a tid bit from an organisation that does this "kosher" bit:

"Star-K Kosher Certification can help you get on the fast track, opening your business to entirely new markets. And becoming Kosher-certified is not as complicated (or EXPENSIVE) as you might think."

And here I thought you said John that fees were not involved? Emphasis mine.

http://www.star-k.org/industry.htm

John, a five minute Google search would have sorted you out:

"As a matter of fact, it has been estimated that approximately one third of all shelf products in our supermarkets are certified kosher. This makes the kosher industry in the U.S. a 30 billion dollars a year business."

"The manufacturer must supply a complete, detailed list of every ingredient in the product, including preservatives, release agents, stabilizers or other inert ingredients. In addition, every step in the manufacturing process, every cleansing agent used on the equipment and all other products produced on the same premises require close investigation and supervision.......The results of all these investigations are forwarded to the rabbinic authority (or board) of the supervising agency. If changes in ingredients or processes are required, the manufacturer must make the changes before the agency will do further work. Once all is acceptable, the rabbinic authority will determine the amount of on-plant supervision necessary. This information is written into a contract and then sent to the manufacturer. The contract also specifies that the manufacturer agrees to make no changes of ingredients or suppliers without prior written consent of the agency. The actual on-site inspector (mashgiach) will verify that the company is complying with the contract......cost depends on the amount of on-site work.
"

http://www.kosherquest.org/html/Reliable_Kosher_Symbols.htm#KOSHER%20CERTIFICATION%20INTRODUCTION

"Every Kashruth agency employs its own price structure to establish a certification fee."

http://www.ou.org/kosher/kosherqa/supervis.htm

These are ALL Jewish sources John. Is this where you say you know more than the Jews themselves, even ones who run these kosher certifying businesses?

John, with this new wealth of information available on-line, why are you so poor?

[John Palubiski]

Abu, since you've got that Jewish "penis evny" thing going, here's a suggestion:

Call in the Imams, pay 'em a fee and have 'em declare certain wines "Halal".

Then you'll be juuuuust like the Jews.

You see, the probelem here is that "Halal" simply doesn't cover nearly the same range of products as "Kosher".

No need, for instance, for a "Halal" yogurt, now is there?

Like I stated above, and in keeping with the content of this thread, Jews never impose their Kashruth dietary restrictions on public institutions, particualarly with regards to meat.

[abusinan]

John,

As usual, you have missed the whole point. I have zero issue with the whole kosher thing.

As a matter of fact, as a Muslim I find I often will go on a food based on if it is marked as kosher or not. The only thing where I wont pay attention to it is foods mixed with dairy and meat and shellfish.

Otherwise the "kosher" symbol helps me a lot in my day to day shopping.

My whole point is that in Western society we already have a food system in which the overwhelming majority of people are forced to comply or fund a set of religious dietary guidlines based on the beliefs of a very small minority.

For me it is extreme ignorance or prejudice that would make these people have an issue when a another small minority ask for something similiar, although of a much smaller scope.

I understand your anger however John, you have a tendency to make these blanket statements backed by nothing more than your own ignorance, then get mad when you get caught out.

Instead of making stupid statements, why not just "Google" the issue before you make yourself sound like a fool?

If you had "Googled" a simple set of words like "Kosher, fee, industry" you wouldnt have sounded like such a prat.

Your fault, not mine. I just wonder, are you too lazy to do so, or just hope everyone will buy the stuff you try to pass off without doing even the most basic fact checking?

[abusinan]

John,

Here you go again with your stupid statements. I just caught this one:

"No need, for instance, for a "Halal" yogurt, now is there?"

There most certainly IS! As usual you make a stupid statement without checking facts.

Hum, I really do suggest google for you. I am starting to feel bad for you because of all of the stupid mistakes you make.

Indeed, one would need to have "halal" or even "kosher" yogurt because yogurt contains gelatin.

"Some flavored yoghurts contain gelatin or stabilizers for a thicker texture."

http://www.webtender.com/db/ingred/163

And, of course, if you hadnt been so lazy and had googled the above, and then checked out "gelatin" you would have found:

"On a commercial scale, gelatin is made from by-products of the meat and leather industry, mainly pork skins, pork and cattle bones, or split cattle hides."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin

John, please, stop making these stupid statements. If you dont know about a subject you should just keep quiet. If you google this phrase it might help you:

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

[Naeem Sarfraz]

I wonder just how many of the protesting parents have thought about the meat they eat at their local "Indian" takeaway. A significant number of them are run by Muslims and serve halal meat.

Anyone for a Chicken Tikka Masala?