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21 February 2007

Comments

Attilla

' It had nothing to do with his religion, but the fact that he was culturally anchored elswhere.'
As his religion was one of the most important anchors to his Pakistani identity surely it had quite a lot to do with it actually. It is a mistake to assume that if someone drinks heavily they are not a practising muslim. Because of their guilt about the 'sin' of drinking alcohol and other muslims' attitude to them, muslim alcoholics or problem drinkers have much more difficulty dealing with it than people from other cultures. The fact that they can neither stop drinking nor stop believing means that they face a much more difficult dilemma.

ainelivia

He was obviously very conflicted and tortured. But that did not give him the right to take the lives of others. Why would he expect his children's lives to be "culturally anchored" anywhere else but the place they grew up?

To some extent I would hold the community that held up to him a mirror he could not comply with, as responsible as he, for his actions. Was the implicit message, be a Muslim like us, or you are not a Muslim. Anywhere else that would be referred to as peer pressure.

John Palubiski

Ainelivia, this whole incident is all about controlling women.

There is a direct connection between Islam's treatment of women and the fate of these unfortunate individuals.

The father lamented the fact that his daughters had adopted western ways......and said as much in a note he left.

He commmitted murder in a fit of angry frustration because he realised he'd lost controle over "his" women.

Think of a six year old having a temper tantrum.

He states VERY clearly that he killed them because they had abandonned the islamic lifestyle.....even mentioning the fact that one of his daughters had expressed a desire to become ( god forbide!) a fashion designer!

It's YET another example of Islam's blatant misogyny destroying families and infantalising males, preventing them from assuming more mature roles and attitudes that are in tune with modernity.

The press associates Islam with this murder because the murderer himself, in his suicide note, invoked Islam.

Osama sees that, but is in denial. Since Islam is considered "perfect" it can never be called on the carpet for its defects, its dysfunctional aspects nor its impact in promoting undesirable and anti-social behaviors.

Islam played a clear role in conditioning this man's mind and in prompting his actions.

The Koran, here, is an accessory to murder.

Osama

Care to share this note with us or did you read that off a wine guide too?

aineliva

Whatever the real reasons, and that cannot be discovered now; the religion cannot be held to blame for a human's actions.

Surely if religion teaches us anything, - mine states quite clearly that killing is wrong.

After all if the individual invokes the religion to justify killing, when the religion doesn't actually demand death, (of course, if the religion did demand death, then there is something wrong). The final decision however was with this man. He made his choices. And we can all invoke religion to back up our actions.

aineliva

Osama, A Cara, you left yourself wide open on this one; what would you know about wine guides? ;-)

John Palubiski

Aineliva, you state this:

But that did not give him the right to take the lives of others. Why would he expect his children's lives to be "CULTURALLY ANCHORED" anywhere else but the place they grew up?

And then you state this:

Whatever the real reasons, and that cannot be discovered now; the religion cannot be held to blame for a human's actions.

Here's my question: was the father's culture "anchored" in Buddhism?

The evidence examined during the inquest clearly shows the guy was motivated by his religious convictions. The unfortunate fellow lamented the fact his daughters had "gone western" when in fact those girls were simply evolving as Muslims.

He was in a state of moral anomie, he could no longer find the familiar faith/cultural reference points in a fast-changing world.

And being in a state of moral anomie, by the way, is no laughing matter. People afflicted with it (doctors mistakenly refer to it as "depression") often descend into drugs and/or alcohol and then commit suicide. It's often a long and agonising death and I'd bet you this guy had been in this state for several years at least.


And I see Osama is still smarting from my verbal come-uppance.

But the sobriety didn't last long.

The latest attack on the UK's schools from the MCB's islamisation wing is just a champagne howler.

Christian missionaries use such awkward, misconceived and maladroit "intiatives" to convince doubting Muslims to take that final jump to Christ.

Shame on you for supporting it, Osama!


aineliva

John, in your comparison of what I said, I am not clear what you are trying to point to?

Whilst the individual may have been motivated by religious convictions, would these have been fully operational while he was in a state of moral anomie (Durkheimian?)? Or would feelings of shame in the face of his community and cultural traditions have been the greater influences on his actions? Indeed, if he felt so alienated and removed from his culture and traditions where was the community to support him? Surely he is not alone in this condition, I doubt he is a one-off, I am sure that many of us who come to this country have similar experiences, removed from all that is familiar.

And if he was in this state for several years, what support was he receiving from his community? Perhaps it's more likely that his mental breakdown was ignored, because we all feel so uncomfortable with the word "mental", and that much denial and disassociation was engaged in by others refusing to acknowledge that he needed help.

Attilla

It doesn't much matter whether Mohammed Riaz's problems derived firstly from anomie or religio-cultural convictions. His beliefs and his condition would mean that he was less able to recognise and cope with his condition than a nonmuslim would probably be, and his family and community were probably less able to do so too. However, his beliefs would also encourage him to believe that he had rights and powers of life and death over his family which he could not exercise, which wouldn't help.
John Palubski, what's in a name? "Moral anomie", depression, abulia, melancholia, the terms are different but the conditions and effects are much the same.

Osama

Palubiski, I put a very straightforward request to you. You based a number of assertions on Riaz's suicide note. Please furnish us with it.

Sohaib

Aine, Osama's reference to wine guides refers to Palubiski's citing of "many reliable history sources" for a nonsensical claim.
https://www.osamasaeed.org/osama/2007/02/yesterdays_chan.html#comment-28884957

When I pushed him repeatedly to quote his "many reliable history sources", he finally admitted that his sole source was "a first-rate wine guide"!!
https://www.osamasaeed.org/osama/2007/02/yesterdays_chan.html#comment-28981095

He subsequently refused even to name the guide. Yet somehow he doesn't seem to see how badly all this exposes his stupidity.

aineliva

Hi Sohaib, I'm going to assume that you are responding to my question, because you have been following this and I have missed something along the way; and not that Osama has some reluctance to engage, and with me in partiuclar.

I will look at the links to previous posts you have provided.

I am at a loss to understand or follow the line of debate here. Wine Guides?? Is this some kind of sarcasm, or just silly mind games? Thank you for the explanation.

JP insists that there is a "note", I have never read that one exists, but would be willing to accept his insistence, should he point to some proof to its existence. It saddens me that silly game playing results in this misinformation. I could be someone reading this and swayed by that information.

Sohaib

Well Ainelivia, I just thought I'd answer because I saw your question there, and because the incident exposes Palubiski's idiocy so manifestly.

Now for Part 2 perhaps, depending on how he answers as to the whereabouts of this "suicide note" invoked in his first rant of this thread.

Sohaib

Pa-lu-BIIIISS-keeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....!!

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