Police need to stop their leaks

The Mail on Sunday first ran the story about the new Muslim WPC who 'refused' to shake hands with the head of the Met, Ian Blair.

Despite her superiors being informed well in advance of the issue, you would think given the media coverage that she was standing in a row of people having their hands shaken and when her turn with Sir Ian came she whipped her hand back, put her thumb on her nose and wiggled her fingers about while blowing a raspberry (see this kid with Steven Gerrard).

The Mail helpfully quoted someone at Scotland Yard saying that she could face the sack if she didn't perform her duties. That would presumably apply to anyone.

However, there is no question about her ability or willingness to do the job. This was a front page story despite the Mail burying this point in the middle of the article:

However, it is clear that she is happy to come into contact with men, just not shake their hand or kiss them.

Nonetheless sundry other news sources including the BBC subsequently leaped upon this non-story, quoting the sacking angle.

I don't know if the situation is genuinely difficult to understand, or whether some wilfully wish to carry on this ignorance in public. The scenario is analogous to a doctor who refuses to French kiss his or her boss, but would have no problem in giving mouth-to-mouth should a life saving scenario unfold.

There is the more serious question of how this story appeared in the public domain. I've written before about the leaky nature of the police when it comes to Muslim matters.

In this case we have a senior police source asking:

"There was a great deal of discussion about it afterwards. People were asking how the hell is she going to make an arrest if she refuses to touch men."

Well why "the hell" didn't they just ask her instead of bleating to the press?

This leak comes just a few weeks after the totally unsubstantiated story about the killer of Sharon Beshenivsky fleeing the country in a burqa was leaked by a police source (see tabloid silly season below and .). Add to this the silly leaks after terror arrests (e.g), the accusations of paedophilia made through the News of the World against Abdul Kahar, the case of the Lebanese officer outside the Israeli embassy who was plastered everywhere as a "Muslim officer" instead, and it doesn't cover the police's relations with the Muslim community in glory.

It's hard to explain the above without coming to the conclusion that there are people prominent in the police who have malevolent feelings towards Muslims. At the same time there is said to be a disconnect between the police and Muslims. The Mail article mentions that recruitment campaigns have been a complete dud to date. Our forces are unlikely to win any trust with this kind of behaviour going on. Time to reign in the rogue elements.

Comments

[Sohaib]

John. There is no verse in the Qur'an that states "And a women PC must refuse to shake the hand of her boss." So in such a case the matter is always more subtle. Believe it or not, Muslim scholars can have different views on many such trivial matters, and that presents no problem. In fact, it can be helpful, because she could have chosen a more permissive opinion if she required it. But she was well within her rights to opt not to shake her boss's hand, and her boss should know better than to get "bloody angry".

I don't recall him being "bloody angry" about De Menezes.

[Sohaib]

Or "bloody furious", even.

[johnmellor77]

Sohaib,
Exactly. If the Qur'an doesn't forbid shaking the hand of her boss her actions are therefore hardline, rude and stupid, especially considering how trivial the whole issue is.
We agree!

[Sohaib]

For those who are not utterly baffled by Islamic law, here's an interesting (long, detailed) response from Sheikh Qaradawi, in which he concludes that the prohibition in such cases is not clear-cut.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546332

Quick Quote:
"Also, it is preferable for the pious Muslim, male or female, not to stretch out his/her hand to shake the hand of anyone of the opposite sex who is not mahram [defined close relative]. But if he/she is put in a situation that someone stretches out his/her hand to shake hands with him/her, then he/she can do that."

But other scholars are free to disagree, and this sister is free to follow their opinions.

[Sohaib]

No, John, we don't agree. For I actually realise that prohibitions in Islam are not based solely on clear-cut verses in the Qur'an. Other sources of Islamic law are the Prophetic Traditions, followed by juristic analogy and scholarly consensus, and numerous other considerations besides.

Even if "hardline", that doesn't make it "stupid".

[johnmellor77]

Silly then? Pointless? Unnecessarily rude? Lacking in basic common sense? All of the above?

The woman was free to make up her own mind over a trivial matter but decided she would, in effect, make a statement saying: "I know it's a sign of congratulations and friendship in the UK but nah, I'm not shaking hands with you."

[Sohaib]

I don't mind that you feel it was all of the above, but I would object to people going further and hinting at a sacking, let alone what the various trash papers want their readers to believe about Muslims.

[johnmellor77]

Very gracious of you Sohaib.

I've never called for her sacking but I suspect her card has already been marked. She'll certainly never get promoted with an attitude like that - nobody'll be able to tell she's a Mason for a start.

[Abu Sinan]

Sohaib, you mean all one billion Muslims do not think exactly the same way, have the same exact beliefs and the same exact ideas?

See, I was sitting here thinking that if you talked to a Muslim in Yemen they would have the same exact ideas and thoughts as a Muslim in Indonesia or Bosnia.

John Mellor,

It is hard for me to sit here and not laugh at your calling someone's religious beliefs "hardline, rude and stupid".

You claim to be tolerant and then slam someone's personal religious beliefs that like?

I think it is "hardline, rude and stupid" that you think the lady should have been forced by nothing more than some people's social convention to do something which violates what she feels are her religious obligations.

If you dont like it, by all means feel free not to do it, but you have NO right to force others to do something they do not want to.

It is the lady's body, it is her choice, she should not be slammed for it.

I suggest you avoid observant Jews and Muslims so as not to be offended by their "hardline, rude and stupid" actions.

At the end of the day it is your loss, not theirs.

[Marcus]

I'd like to mention that men/women avoiding shaking hands with the opposite sex has nothing to do with snubbing norms/customs of host countries, and all to do with preventing physical contact between sexes to avoid the development of any lust/feelings that could lead to something more.

I've seen men refuse to shake hands with women in Muslim countries, where the woman is maybe more secular or used to shaking hands. He simply states 'sorry', and she understands he's the religious type and doesn't push it.

It's not just the norm here to shake hands, Arabs do it too, but they don't make a fuss when the Muslim religious among them don't do it to opposite sexes. They don't claim that their Muslims are 'extremist' or rejecting their Arab tradition, they know that yes, it is about sex.

Having said that, this woman refused a significant man's handshake publicly, which probably humiliated him. She should either have made it clear to him before hand, or went along to not embarrass him in public. Maybe they could've given each other Japanese style bow-greetings and got on with it, but alas, it was not meant to be.

But hey, if not touching Blair was to prevent getting any feelings for him, it seems to have worked overboard.

[johnmellor77]

Abu,
We're talking about a handshake.
The lady was not forced to do anything, nobody shook her hand.

However, she did, in my opinion, act in a rude and stupid manner because of her hardline religious beliefs. Rude because she turned her back on a harmless social norm - one that indicates friendship and comradeship no less - in a very public and heavy handed way, and stupid because she should have realised exactly how rude she was being.

The idea that religion is an excuse for stupid behaviour is not one I subscribe too - whatever the religion.

[joe90]

As there are two decent folk here I thought you might be interested in this news item from bonnie Scotland
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/6298041.stm>Boss issues racist remark apology
BBC
25 Jan 2007

Trevor Matthews, Standard Life
Mr Matthews made the comment at a presentation in Edinburgh
A chief executive at one of the UK's biggest insurance companies has apologised for using a racist phrase.

Trevor Matthews, head of Standard Life's life and pensions business, made the comment at a presentation at its Edinburgh headquarters on Monday.

And the latest racist splurge from Christopher Hitchens -
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_urbanities-steyn.html>Facing the Islamist Menace
City Journal
Winter 2007

There are desperate attempts to re-incarnate the cold war in all of this, as a justification for US-UK-NATO military adventures abroad.

All the best Abu Sinan and Sohaib - it's always a pleasure to read any the two of you!

ps
And a special hello to you both seeing as how it's January 25th Rabbie 'Burns Day' - tonight's the night for kilts, McSween's Vegetarian Haggis, lashings of uisge-beatha and the words of the immortal Bard of Caledonia!

'Fare for yir honest sonsie face,
Great chieftain a' the puddin race..
etc etc....'

[John Palubiski]

You are missing the point. You said Muslims must assimilate to British society or leave. I pointed out that religious Jews do many of the same things that observant Muslims do, yet you do not encourage them to assimilate or leave.

Abu, there's a world of difference between the aims, objectives and attitudes of Orthodox Jews and those you refer to as "observant" Muslims.

Hassidic Jews demand little or nothing from the larger society; they go about their business, they live in their own neighbourhoods and they do not operate "parallel" parliaments nor boast of their desire to turn British society into an hassidic caliphate. To boot, they do not engage in either passive/aggressive stunts or supremacist behaviors.

We have no need, thus, for documentaries with titles such as "undercover Synagogue".

The old "well-look-at-the-Jews" argument just doesn't hold water. Hassidic women don't become police officers and if one ever decideds to do so, then I'm quite sure they'd go secular the way many Jews have done. Your attempts to evade issues by pointing fingers at Hassidic communities that have been established in The West for generations betrays not an effort to apprehend the truth, but rather a clumsey attempt at avoiding it.

One other thing, instead of feeling angst at my shameful "hypocrisy", do you not think you better interests would be served by scutinsing any actions a few of your more Far-Right co-relgionists may be preparing to engage in?

They've squandered the oddles of good-will the British are famous for and their islamo charm-offensive is dead in the water; those "invitations" to Islam, those supremacist whack-job offensives to "educate" the public now sound like lame and hollow attempts at indoctrination and manipulation.

Qaradawi has been outed.

And if you don't believe that, then just check the attendance stats from last year's "Islam-expo".

There were so few people, you could have fired a cannonball through the lobby....

Other sources of Islamic law are the Prophetic Traditions, followed by juristic analogy and scholarly consensus, and numerous other considerations besides.

You're off on a tangent once again, Sohaib.

Britons couldn't care less if Islamic jurists reach their decisions while practising yoga.

It is all immaterial.

When you enter a secular police force with the goal of enforcing secular law, you check your "harem" and your "halal" at the office door when reporting for DUTY.

And you show the utmost respect for your superiors.

[Sohaib]

Palubiski, you should get a doctor to take a look at your rants. Joe, thanks for the Rabbie Day wishes. The same to you.

And so back to the point. John Mellor, you described her method as "a very public and heavy handed way" - but no, it wasn't. And Marcus seemed to miss this point too.

In fact, she went and explained beforehand so as to avoid embarrassment at the moment in question. And Blair understood, such that he didn't offer his hand to her. My source? The Mail on Sunday article above!

There are nice ways to greet other than shaking hands. Reasonable people are fine with this, as my personal experiences attest. One polite gesture is to place the right hand on one's chest/heart and smile.

[johnmellor77]

Out of 200 people standing on a parade ground she was the only one not to shake his hand? That's a snub, man, and it's very much in public.

[johnmellor77]

"In fact, she went and explained beforehand so as to avoid embarrassment at the moment in question."

Yes, but all that proves is she knew that what she was doing was rude and had planned it well in advance.

She wasn't brave enough to look Blair in the eye and tell him herself though, her training instructor had to do that!

[John Palubiski]

Joe, thanks for the Rabbie Day wishes. The same to you.

Yes, knock back a dram or two, darlin' and relieve your constipation.

She wasn't brave enough to look Blair in the eye and tell him herself though, her training instructor had to do that!

John77, it's a typical passive/aggressive stunt that was planned ahead of time in order to better calculate the impact.

This police-officer should be unceremoniously booted out and the reasons for doing so are obvious.

She's too indoctrinated, she hasn't a very clear idea of British social norms and her supremacist attitudes betray an inability to deal fairly with all Brtions, no matter their origins or faith.

What to say of such a deluded fundamentalist that she wouldn't even allow her photograph to be taken for fear it'd be used for "propaganda purposes"?

Whose exactly? The BNP's?

There's one other reason, as well. Like I stated above, there already are female Muslim police officers who have compromised with and adapted to modern life. Keeping this religious nutter on the force will only jeopardise the gains that those women have worked so hard to obtain.

>i>Ni pûtes, ni soumises

Those are the gals that give "Sohaib" nightmares.

[wayayeman]

To JohnMellor77 - i havent had time to read all the comments in this debate but this ones for you

Can you please explain how the refusal to shake hands is insulting ??

Its understandable if this was done in public and the person extending their hand was totally unaware but for you to say that:

"In the UK refusing to shake someone's hand is saying this: "I want nothing to do with you, I am above you." It is that insulting."

...is really laughable - in fact its hilarious

I've been working for the same company and same people for nearly 7 years and have never shaken anybodys hand except the manager on arrival for the 3 interviews i had !!

You want to know why ??

Simple - shaking hands is not a big thing in the UK and for you to suggest that it is some how an indication of how somebody views their status in coomparison to another person is way, way off the mark !!

Where exactly in Britain do you come from ?

When was the last time you went to a pub or snooker club, or a university or a train station and seen 2 British men shake hands and greet one another ??

It might be done for the cameras by Mr Blair and other bigwigs but it is no way a British thing to shake hands - i should know ive lived in both England & Scotland and as mentioned have very rarely shaken hands with anybody outside the Muslim community.

Yes, im a Muslim and it is easy for me to say without any hesitation that shaking hands is an Islamic practice because whereveer you go, be it the Middle East, the Sub-continent or Sunny Glasgow, Muslim men almost always shake hands with other Muslim men and even people they dont know when meeting and greeting - the same can in no way be applied to the native white British male.

Moving on, what is it that you dont understand in this particular situation ?

Islam teaches males and females not to come into contact with each other unless absolutely necessary - whilst i agree that a hand shake is polite and the correct thing to do if somebody extends their hand, what is the big deal if a Muslim lady chooses not to shake hands with somebody ??

Its hardly the end of the world and the 'i am above you' nonsense you are talking about is, well, exactly that nonsense !!

The CS spray comment is again pretty stupid, and her stance on homosexuality has nothing to do with her job.

Im absolute certain that there are thousands of officers up and down the country who are against homosexuality - have you questioned their ability to do their job ??

The last time i checked, this was a free country and her opinion on any given issue is exactly that, her opinion !!!

I wish i could stay and read more and maybe i'll pop back but JohnMellor77 give it a rest man, you and the other John have a clear anti-Muslim agenda and u aint fooling anybody.

Maybe you could tell us about what the Polics should do about the Jew who wants every Saturday off due to his religious belief ??

Is he all of the things you have attributed to this Muslim lady police officer ??

Obviously he views himself as a superior being as he has asked for Saturdays off to practice his faith !!

doh !!

[joe90]

To JohnMellor77 - i havent had time to read all the comments in this debate but this ones for you

- don't worry wayayeman, you haven't missed anything where mellor and palubiski are concerned!

ps
I love the name!

[Abu Sinan]

Thanks Joe! But I'll have to pass on the haggis! LOL!

Poor John Pal, he seems to have missed the fact that anti-Semites like himself peddled the myth that Jews were out to rule the world for hundreds of years.

The new anti-Semites hate not only Jews(although since this is now umpopular he wont admit it), they hate Muslims. No Semite is a good Semite to these loosers.

So it is either the Jews or the Muslims out to rule the world. Hitler used such a justification to wipe out 6 million Jews.

If left to their devices the vermine like John would do his best to wipe out many more Muslims.

It is ironic how people like John are just the mirror of the Islamic extremists yet they are so think they cannot even see it!

[John Palubiski]

I wish i could stay and read more and maybe i'll pop back but JohnMellor77 give it a rest man, you and the other John have a clear anti-Muslim agenda and u aint fooling anybody.

If you are foolish enough to see the defense of western mores and cultural norms as "anti-Muslim", then you are making the tacit admission that Islam and The West are incompatible.

Defending an age-old British custom is an now an "anti-islam" gesture.

It isn't.

It's a pro-British gesture and you ARE in the UK.

If you wish to promote islamist values, then I suggest you go and do so in the Islamic world

The CS spray comment is again pretty stupid, and her stance on homosexuality has nothing to do with her job.

What utter nonsense.

So it would be OK if a white British police were to condone the murder of Muslims? Such ideas would have no bearing on his/her ability to deal with the country's islamic community while performing his/her duties?

Would it be OK with you if the UK were to hire such policemen?

By your own logic it certainly would be.

This PC and her "ideas" represent a fringe group in the UK's Muslim community; she's islamist BNP.

The fact she wraps her hatred and her Far Right supremacist sentiments in some dubious Abrahamic twaddle changes nothing.

Her soul still goose-steps.

[johnmellor77]

Wayayeman,

Why don't you read all my posts? It just might help you out.

They quite clearly explain how her actions were insulting. This wasn't a case of some mates meeting in a pub, this was the top policeman in a country welcoming her into the force. If a handshake is not such a big thing, then why not just shake hands? Do you really not recognise rude behaviour when you see it? Do you really think shaking hands is not a "British" thing? She did not refuse his outstretched hand because she had already, in effect, said "Don't you dare..."

As Osama points out, there are strained relations between the Muslim community and the police. Therefore a Muslim WPC refusing to shake the hand of the top policeman in the land, even though she wants to be a policewoman, is a pretty strong statement and one she obviously wanted to make.

Regarding your other ill-informed points: the police do not give every Saturday off to Jews. Or do you think every Christian copper gets Christmas and Easter Sunday off too? Most police forces work a shift system where officers work a set number of days then get a set number of says off. Crime, alas, doesn't observe religious holidays or the Sabbath.

And you miss my point - by a country mile - about her views on homosexuality. If she is so devout she feels she cannot shake hands with a man while wearing her police uniform because of her Muslim beliefs (and hand shaking is a matter of personal choice), then why are we to suppose she will be able to carry out her duties when they conflict with other, stricter Islamic laws?

Is she allowed to go into a pub or nightclub: that's forbidden, isn't it?

I don't have an anti-Muslim agenda, I have an anti-bullshit one. Saying "Because I'm a Muslim" is not a get out of jail free card for ludicrous behaviour.

You are, of course, right when you say that this is a free country and this woman can do what she likes. Similarly, I'm free to criticise her rudeness and call it as I see it.

[Donald Maclean]

It's a shame the Monty Python team have split up, they'd have a field day with this one. It's either very funny, or very sad. Or both.

[DDD]

It's not as if there isn't an equivalent gesture in this case within the Muslim world; the placing of the hand over the heart. Ian Blair might add it to his repertoire.

[johnmellor77]

Funny.