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19 December 2006

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John Palubiski

.....said the growing number of attacks on Muslims echoed the state-sponsored persecution of Jews in pre-war Germany.

“We didn’t get to the situation in world war two out of nowhere,” said Saeed.

Do you speak english, Osama?

You most certainly did make such an odious reference/comparison, and your attempts to backtrack and to deny your very own words just confirm the accusation even more.

You should learn, as Tariq Ramadan has done, to tailor you words so that they are more deceptive and palatable to the Kuffur

A couple questions in the hope of giving you some perspective;

Did the Jews ever bomb Berlin's subway and bus systeme prior to the war?

Did they ever impose Kosher dietary rules on German school-children without informing or even asking their parents?

And during the '36 olympics did they insist on the construction of a giant synagogue/Jewish centre just beside the olympic venue?

It's hard, if not impossible, for you to think of yourself as an "equal", isn't it?





Sohaib

The most worrying thing about your comment, John, is not that your jibe about "english" [sic].

It was not "THE MUSLIMS" who bombed anything in this country. And the other examples are just pure tabloid hysteria. Are you a walking tabloid? I wonder if you have red hair.

No, the most worrying thing is that you didn't even deny that there is hatred being whipped up against Muslims, and that it could lead to something like what the Jews faced in Nazi Germany. (Which, according to my understanding of English, is EXACTLY what Osama said.)

Instead, you imply that Muslims (all Muslims) deserve this fate. Luckily, I don't think you represent anyone but the foolish and bigoted.

John Palubiski

Sohaib, do you have dificulty reading english as well?

The 7/7 bombings were committed by Muslims and many other have been thwarted.....all of them planned and executed by Muslims.

So "THE MUSLIMS" did do the 7/7 bombings.

That's why they didn't call themselves Buddhists.

You've obvious problemes grasping basic facts.

Your odious attempts to play victim by associating the situation of Muslims in the UK with pre-war Jews in Germany is precisely what the Times article was denouncing.

Yet you repeat the very thing Osama denies: that the present situation of Muslims in the UK is analogous to that of the Jews in 1930s Germany.

It isn't.

The two situations have nothing in common especially since it has been a section of the UK's Muslim community who have committed atrocities whereas the Jews in Germany did nothing.

If any analogy can be drawn, it would be between the present-day situation of Christians in majority-Muslim countries and Jews in Nazi Germany.

The reason is simple; the power relationship of tyrant to oppressed is very similar.

Ditto for the lack of religious freedoms.

It is bigoted and supremacist of you to assume that anyone anywhere is planning a "fate" for you. Do you think you're the centre of everyone else's universe, and that people obsess about you all the time?

They don't.

However, events the world over have taught humanity to associate Islam with indiscriminate, unrpovoked mass- murder.....whether it be in Bali, Bombay, Britian or Kenya.

THOSE events and you're sumpremacist-tinged denial of them are what's at the bottom of all this "whipped-up" hatred you feign to percieve.

You are free to live wherever you choose, Sohaib, and if the inhabitants of the UK take further precautions to thwart other attempts at mass-murder, precautions that displease you, then I suggest you look for real-estate someplace else.

Cuz you see, there's nothing "bigoted" about working to prevent the murder of innocent commuters, dear.

Only a thoroughly deformed morality would object to that.

RandomGuy

John said "However, events the world over have taught humanity to associate Islam with indiscriminate, unprovoked mass- murder.....whether it be in Bali, Bombay, Britian or Kenya"

John, events over the world have taught humanity to associate the US and UK (and 'the alliance' as it were) with indiscriminate, unprovoked mass murder.....whether it be in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine etc. So we can (using your razor-sharp logic) say that the BRITISH killed all the MUSLIMS in those countries. Indiscriminately. Like terrorists.

Note to John, double edged swords cut both ways. If you want to recycle a long list of crimes on either side, we could be at this for ages (one word: colonialism).

Osama's statement pertained to the state-sponsored infrastructure behind the persecution. And I think he has a valid point.

joe90

Well, I live in the UK I can't recall democratically electing you as my spokesperson. I don't appreciate it when you, or others like you, take it upon yourself to speak on behalf of others like myself who are UK residents.

Finding a connection between innocent civilians and those who commit crimes is as easy as pie. Then using this flimsy connection, nazis and neo-nazis proceed to issue proclamations of collective guilt on the victims of their insane and irrational race-hatred. Criminals commit crime, not innocent people. Being of any religious denomination in the UK isn't a crime.

The fact is, German Jews were collectively accused of many crimes far worse than the crime this John character is collectively accusing British Muslims of. John obviously doesn't know his history, so he can't really be the judge between parallels then and now.

However when John adumbrates
events the world over have taught humanity
what he is describing is the tired old nazi rubbish about a Jewish world conspriarcy, only he has dressed it up in Muslim attire, so to speak. Different religion this time around, same old stale racism.

By the way are these really crimes?
Did they ever impose Kosher dietary rules on German school-children without informing or even asking their parents?

And during the '36 olympics did they insist on the construction of a giant synagogue/Jewish centre just beside the olympic venue?

What would Hitler have said to the building of a giant Synagogue in Berlin in 1936 John?

Perhaps, something along the lines of what you are saying about a Mosque being built in London, which has a very sizeable Muslim population and might benefit from such project. Maybe even athletes visting from Muslim countries mught like the idea too.

Of course, knowing a bit of history I know Hitler didn't build a synagogue, but his regime did clean their act up for the duration, as they knew they'd be under the international spotlight when the Olympics came to town. Any charges against Hitler's regime, of anti-jewish racism etc, would appear unfounded. Much like the denials of anti-Muslim bigotry, or denials that analogies with other racist regimes using race for political purposes is un-called for. Especially when such denials come from people like John, telling folk to get out the country if they don't like it. A nice touch I thought. End of argument.

Utbah

So bloody what if Osama made a "comparison". The Nazi's didn't just wake up one morning and said "0h let's kill these Jews" Now did they?

They did this first through the daily Anti-Semitic Newspapers (Völkischer Beobachter) like the Islamophobic Newspapers (Daily Mail, The Sun). Now what Osama should have compared was these Newspapers.

Völkischer Beobachter = The Daily Mail
Das Reich (newspaper) = The Sun

joe90

Don't worry Utbah mate,
of course your analogy is spot on.

The Daily Mal even made the claim once upon a time, when it was fashionable to do so and its victims were unable to defend themselves, that the head of the British Union of Fascists was the most perfect human being ever -
- it also said that Herr Hitler was doing a marvellous job in Germany, don't you know old sport - it even had the banner headline on of its front pages
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hurrah-Blackshirts-Fascists-Fascism-Britain/dp/1844130878/ref=pd_sim_b_2/202-8484213-1875858>Hurrah for the Blackshirts!
c.1936, same year as the Berlin Olympics

Of course,
times change and so do the victims of The Daily Mal - yesterday it was the Jews, today its the Muslims - same old racism, its just different targets whom chooses, much like a bully that chooses their victims because they can't fight back.

Of course,
being a newspaper of high principles The Daily Mal
(whose catchy but honest slogan is
'today's newspaper-tomorrow's chip-paper')
dumped Herr Hitler overnight once he started to attack British interests. A very typical example of that good-old fashioned, time-honoured way that has made the name of the British Establishment a by-word for hypocrisy, sleaze and corruption down the ages, the world over.

It would be interesting to know what The Daily Mal thinks of alleged corruption of the multi-billion pound British arms industry and the western dicratorship of the House of Fraud in darkest Arabia.

ainelivia

Random Guy wrote: - "Note to John, double edged swords cut both ways. If you want to recycle a long list of crimes on either side, we could be at this for ages (one word: colonialism)."

And Islamic countries did not "colonise"? Spain? North Africa? Europe? They must teach a different history in Scotland...........?


Joe90 wrote: - "I don't appreciate it when you, or others like you, take it upon yourself to speak on behalf of others like myself who are UK residents."

Says the man, (or rather she could be a 43 year old woman sitting in front of a computer in Bromley, eating pizza; I digress) who lives in a country (Scotland) that wants INDEPENDENCE!! from the UK. Stick to Schotland Joe90, cos I cannae think of anywhere else that wants YOU to speak for them!!

Sohaib wrote: - " I wonder if you have red hair."

A lot of us Celts, do have red hair. Do you have a problem with this? And does that mean you are a racist?

What is EVEN MORE WORRYING is that whilst a lot of commenters here are harping on about racism and anti-Islamic behaviour, they do this whilst demonstrating racism, predjudice, and anti-semitic sentiment.

Isn't it a hypocrisy that those who seek to draw parallels between the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, and the situation of Muslims in the UK, are among those who express such aggressive anti-semitic sentiment, and from a "group" of people, some of whom want to "wipe Jews off the map" and one of whose number has recently organised a conference to ascertain whether or not The Holocaust actually happenned????****!!!!!

But "we'd like to be considered as vulnerable as Jewish people please?"

C'mon guys, sort out these little anomalies in the thinking please.

The other thing I do notice, is that Osama is constantly being "misunderstood". Almost every time he speaks or writes, he claims to have been misunderstood or misinterpreted in some way. I don't think that he can be that often misunderstood, since as he says English is his mother tongue. But on the other hand, if you want to get noticed, anywhere, never mind in politics, you go out, say contentious things intentionally, and then claim you've been misunderstood. Easy-peezy, every politician and Z-list celebrity in the universe knows this.

johnmellor77

Why exactly are you a spokesman for the MAB, Osama?
It seems to me you say something then backtrack and blame the media for misinterpreting what you say. That's cowardly.
The implication of your comment in the Sunday Times is that if intolerance is not stopped then the situation could deteriorate even further, just as it did for Jews in Germany before the second world war.
To me, that does suggest the current treatment of Muslims echoes that of the Jews in the 30s.
Echoes does not mean exactly the same, just as deny and resist do not me co-operate.
I'm not even sure why you're backtracking so spectacularly on this one, you are right - intolerance has to be fought and your untrustworthiness reflects badly on the MAB, I'm afraid.

johnmellor77

that should of course read "just as deny and resist do not MEAN co-operate"
I was a bit flabbergasted by Osama's brazen cheek with his post.

RandomGuy

Aine, thank you for validating my point about the merry-go-round argument more succintly then I ever could have ("You said, I said, They did, We did, yaddayaddayadda").

You can try to deny it as rabidly as you like, but Osama has a valid point. The media spun it out of context and Osama has since clarified himself multiple times.

johnmellor77

RandomGuy,
How have his comments been spun out of context?
He said the treatment of Muslims in this country was similar to the way Jews were treated as anti-semitism took hold in Germany. Not that it was exactly the same but that if something was not done to address the problem then it could go that way ie it has echoes of the situation.
If Osama cannot take responsibility for his comments - in the Sunday Times and in the Courier - should he not just keep his mouth shut?

John Palubiski

Yes, Random guy, the U.S. and U.K. are indiscriminate mass-murderers.....that's why about half the Muslim world wants to move to either one....by just about any means possible.

Colonialism, ya say, eh?

I take it you're against "colonialism".

Then perhaps you'd like to offer a bit of support to the aboriginals of North Africa, the Berbers, who number nearly 10 million and whose language is OUTLAWED by the colonising Arab majority.

That's right, Randomguy, the legitimate inhabitants of North Africa have had, in what must be one of the worst examples of colonialism, the Arab language rammed down their throats against their will.

Colonialism, eh?

When will the Turkish colonial occupation of Anatolia and Constantinople end? Turks are native to Central Asia, dontcha know?

Then there's Egypt. The native inhabitants of Egypt, The Copts, have had their language banned , their faith repressed harassed and quashed through discriminatory laws, kidnappings and forced conversions.

Then there's old Andalus that spent seven miserable centuries under Arabo/Muslim yoke. But the Spanish, thouugh, imbibed the that arabo/muslim contempt for the "other" and penchant for domination and oppression.

That's why, Randomguy, the very first European state to engage in colonialism was Imperial Spain. Cortés, Pizarro et al gleaned their attitudes, their violence and their desire to dominate from a culture which had dominated them for generations.

The Arab colonialist Andalus served, then, as the very template from which "European" colonialism was struck.

So if you're going to get "colonialism" stuck in your craw, then let's begin at the beginning, shall we?

Your lecture's over.

Isn't it a hypocrisy that those who seek to draw parallels between the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, and the situation of Muslims in the UK, are among those who express such aggressive anti-semitic sentiment, and from a "group" of people, some of whom want to "wipe Jews off the map" and one of whose number has recently organised a conference to ascertain whether or not The Holocaust actually happenned????****!!!!!

But "we'd like to be considered as vulnerable as Jewish people please?"

Very, very, very well said, Ainelivia.

Sohaib, it appears, is both a hypocrite AND irony tone-deaf.....

joe90

I cannae think of anywhere else that wants YOU to speak for them
- do you have any evidence for this latest in your long litany of crimes I have committed?
Care to tell me how you became the spokesperson for these people? The very criticism I have made of John, and you hilariously commit the same act of self-proclaimed opinionator for others youself.

I see you are unable to wean yourself off your awful tabloid agony aunt act, with your cosy homilies and cheesy indigistable moral fables.

Let me know who these hypocritical aggressive antisemitic types are will you, mrs man-hater and frued reader, and please provide evidence otherwise people will think your just making it up, as usual.
I think you may be refering to some conference, or other, in Iran. I fail to see what that has to do with your racist charge agianst people in Britian. Again could you let me have evidence, or better still try and make sense. John seems to agree so maybe he can tell me what the connection is between the President of Iran and people in the UK?

Who wants to wipe who off the map?
In case you've forgotten, there are western bloodbaths going on against Iraq, Afganistan and Occupied Palestine, and laso Lebanon only just recently - so who is wiping who out, in reality that is, as opposed to trivial massmedia headlines?

And what has Israel (which I presume is the country being threatened with being wiped out!) got to do with being Jewish?
You only believe that claim if you believe the claims of the propagandists of the racist Israeli government.

And Islamic countries did not "colonise"? Spain? North Africa? Europe? They must teach a different history in Scotland...........?
- which Islamic countries colonised these places?
It must be a wierd kind of history you were taught, which doesn't surprise me.
As for ancient history, could you give me the dates of these awful crimes, some of whose victims are today's happy descendants. Nobody today is complaining about these events, except people eager to take offence at others, and have to search through the annals of antique history of other continents, in order to dish some dirt on their living targets. Talk about desperation.

As I said, find the flimsiest of connection between criminals and the innocent and then hold the innocent collectively responsible for the alleged crimes committed. Not even ancient history is safe from these typical neo-nazi racist smear-mongers.

Martin

Osama,

Seeing as you're a Muslim bigot, unethical journalist, apologist for kidnapping and possibly an inciter of perversion of the course of justice, it's a wonder why the Sunday Times would call you to ask you the time let alone provide them with a comment - and even in that situation, I would call back to verify - but there are a few wee differences between the treatment of Jews in Germany between 1933 and 1945 and the treatment of Muslims in the UK now.

No member of the Third Reich's government ever visited a synagogue.

The Third Reich never issued any statement proclaiming its respect for Judaism.

Jewish religious groups did not receive funding from the Third Reich's taxpayers.

During the course of the Third Reich, no Jewish group ever formed a 'Jewish Parliament'.

No minister of the Third Reich ever held meetings with Jewish leaders.

Jews did not insist on the German non-Jewish majority conforming to their norms.

Jews did not stand outside Ulm and Cologne cathedrals shouting 'Kill the Pope!'

Jews did not march through the streets demanding that the publishers of anti-Semitic cartoons in Denmark be beheaded.

Jews were not permitted to immigrate into Germany in large numbers.

And there was no equivalent of Osama Saeed from the 'Jewish Association of Germany' getting phone calls from 'Die Welt'.

History's a bitch, don't you think?

Sohaib

They just get shriller.

John, I already answered your points, so I won't repeat myself. I don't get off on that like some people.

Just look at your own words and note the first place you use the definite article (that's "the", since you have a dearth of understanding of English grammar). Consider the implications.

> The 7/7 bombings were committed by Muslims
> and many other have been thwarted.....all
> of them planned and executed by Muslims.

> So "THE MUSLIMS" did do the 7/7 bombings.


Aine, I said what I said about red hair as a joke about "walking tabloid" - think, my dear.

Sohaib

To compare or not to compare? I think Osama did compare the situations and was right to do so. However, he didn't suggest they were equivalent. No analogy is perfect. What the Sunday Times were guilty of is exaggerating just what Osama considers the parallels to be.

Jewish writers have made the comparison. Irish people have pointed to similarities with their experiences in this country. We should always learn from history, especially so recent.

How did the German regime grow so brutal? How did the people as a whole not stop the growing tide of hatred? We have to ask the questions and learn the lessons.

johnmellor77

Sohaib,
you're right here - Osama never said the two situations were equivalent - he said that there were similarities. So why is he back-pedalling? Because the headline doesn't look good? Just like he did in Dundee, even though that too summarised his comments quite correctly, he tries to obfuscate, hide behind semantics and refuses to take responsibility for what he said. What a dafty. It's quite sad, really.

Martin

Sohaib,

"How did the German regime grow so brutal?"

They Third Reich started off that way.

"How did the people as a whole not stop the growing tide of hatred?"

They had been hammered by the demands of the Versailles Treaty and the mess that was the German economy of the 1920's.

Neither has a direct comparator in recent British history; so the best lesson we can learn from that period in history is that we don't have much to learn from that period in history.

And the citation of Jewish and Irish writers in support of such views always depends on one critical factor - which Jewish and Irish writers?

joe90

No member of the Third Reich's government ever visited a synagogue.
- yes they did.
Only just recently on the UK Channel 4 documentary series, there is actual newsreel footage taken by the nazis themselves of a typical Jewish celebration, inside a typical Synagogue.

etc etc

There were many Jewish Leaders who were in cahoots with the nazis for one reason and another.

Most of what you're going on about is the usual racist rubbish we have come to expect from von munchausen.

As this is human history we are talking about, no two situations are ever exactly the same, ever. Human history isn't like the harder sciences such as maths or physics where exact situations can be exactly replicated and are usually true and eternally everlasting. However, it is quite right and proper to use history to compare and contrast and learn from, otherwise we get nowhere.

Osama's analogy is with the predicament that German Jewish folk found themselves in, once the Nazis came to power, and the predicament the British Muslim folk find themselves in at the moment, and for no other reason than that they are convenient racist scapegoats for the crimes of Tony Bush and New Labour.

So in the usual mixed-up way we've come to expect from martin von munchausen of the funny voices (recently spotted trying out his disc-jockey french on one of his unfortunate victims),
what he says is all true if we stick to the proper analogy Osama is trying to make, substituting 'Nazi' wherever you see martin's 'Jews'
ie
The Nazis did insist on the German non-Jewish majority conforming to their norms.

The Nazis did stand outside Ulm and Cologne cathedrals shouting 'Kill the Pope!'

The Nazis did march through the streets demanding that the publishers of anti-Semitic cartoons in Denmark be beheaded.

I am not saying any of these events happened, but then, neither is martin. It's just to point out martin's complete misunderstanding of the point of the rise of state-sponsored racism, and therefore, what they might rationally expect to happen to them in the future, if the past is anything to go by.

German Jewish folk had the same civil rights as other German folk, but gradually these were taken away from them once the Nazis got power. Which is exactly what Osama is saying and as martin eloquently illustrates by his catalogue of alleged abuses by his convenient racist targets, powerless to defend themselves properly against this current ongoing concerted race-hate state-media propaganda campaing.

joe90

Accoring to martin,
there is nothing to learn about how to stop the takeover of a western liberal democracy by a gang of racist thugs!

Just some points to counter martin's usual assemblege of half-baked rubbish -

The Versailles Treaty, its reperations and 'war guilt' clause were deeply resented in Germany.

However, the German economy recovered from its early 1920s difficulties.

The reperations were renegotiated in the early 1930s in the Young Plan.

The rest of the western world was also subjected to the catastrophic consequences of the Wall Street Crash in 1929, so why was Germany any different?

And the Nazis didn't finally destroy the accountable liberal democratic Wiemar German government until 1933 -
- are you trying to suggest, then, the Nazis are merely the pawns of history, and are not to be held accountable for their deliberate pre-planned pre-mediatated actions and policies?

If so, then why do you think these 'Islamic extremists' you seem so pre-occupied with, should be held so accountable for their actions?

ainelivia

Sohaib writes: - "Irish people have pointed to similarities with their experiences in this country. We should always learn from history, especially so recent."

Yes there are similarities between the Irish situation and the current one. However, Irish people in this country, in the main, adhered to the rule of law.

And most importantly, the para-militaries, had some code of honour because they generally gave warnings of their intent to bomb, saving some lives at least.

The problem still remains, that suicide-bombers, who appear to believe that their orders come directly from God, do not warn, do intend to take life and are arrogant enough to appear on videos telling us how they want revenge on the general public, and how proud they are to be committing murder.

Whilst the media often tried to portray the IRA and the Loyalist factions as being divided on a religious basis, I have yet to hear of any one of them decreeing that his instructions come directly from God.

Whilst these suicide bombers show their total disdain for the population of this country, I doubt that the empathy vote will increase.

Yes, there are lessons to be learned from the Irish experience in this country, get some sense of honour, PLEASE SUICIDE-BOMBERS, ANY CHANCE OF WARNINGS, THE IRA DID IT, WHAT MAKES YOU ANY DIFFERENT?

Martin

Bollocks to you Joe.

joe90

Irish people in this country, in the main, adhered to the rule of law.

And most importantly, the para-militaries, had some code of honour because they generally gave warnings of their intent to bomb, saving some lives at least.
- what an apologist for terrorist atrocities you are - a code of honour, tell that to their victims!

Wasn't I the one that was supposed to be excusing terrorists for their crimes not too long ago, you pompous man-hating windbag?

How many people did the Provos murder, compared to these recent suicide bombers in London - and what makes one mass-murder any different from any other mass-murder?

"It's ok people! Although this Irish terrorist blew my family and community to pieces, he claims he did warn us first, and it wasn't because of God that they did what they did. Thank God for that then!"

Same with the victims of Hitler and Stalin - they had the comforting news, if they survived, that it wasn't because of God or suicide bombers that they were subjected to their horrific crimes.

What a comfort all this good news will be to Bush and Blair's millions of victims especially in Iraq, which had never seen a suicide bomber in its hiostory until Bush and Blair went on their racist mass-murder war crimes spree.

Both these western leaders are, of course, guilty of the exact same crime as Hitler is guilty of, 'unprovoked aggression' - hence their need to find powerless scapegoats at home to hide their raist war crimes behind.

Martin

Joe,

You're insane.

Utterly insane.

I'm through with even baiting you.

You are crazy - a loon, whacko, nutjob and moonhowler.

I feel soiled after reading you.

If you are the type of commentor Saeed is interested in attracting, i'm out of here seriously.

Bollocks to you.

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