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18 December 2006

Comments

ainelivia

Osama, a wall, what about "the elephant in the living-room"?

John Palubiski

Osama, this should be another litmus-test , an opportunity for your to clearly demonstrate your moderation

Instead, you display your willfull blindness by finishing your post, not with a condemnation of Islamist agressions....because that IS the primary cause of the exodus... but rather with a trite warning to the CofE and the RC church to not discuss or even mention the ethnic cleansing being carried out against the region's Christians.

How can they blame Israel when the major probeleme revolves around islamist intolerance?

Compare the stats.

The number of Christians living in Israel has increased by 270% since the country's founding in 1948.

Israel is "intolerant", you see.

Meanwhile in Bethlehem, birthplace of The Savior, the figure has fallen from 85% to a mere 12%.

That's because Islamists are so tolerant and that the myth of "Islamic fundamentalism" is just that; a myth.

At least in your world.

MonkeyZerg

John Palubiski, your comment just shows your ignorance and anti-Muslim prejudice.

I'm a Palestinian and our family's best friends are Palestinian Christians from Beit Jala, some of whom live in Bethlehem. It is not Muslims of any stripe that are the reason for Christians leaving, it is the Zionist occupation and oppression of Palestinians, including the oppression of the Palestinian Christians. The 'religious persecution, in the form of murders, beatings and land grabs' is being carried out by the Israeli army and the settlers, who have been doing this to all Palestinians, not just Christians or Muslims. The reason the number of Christians has dwindled is because they were forced out, or emigrated to escape the suffering all Palestinians go through. It's the same story with many Muslim Palestinians. You fail to mention that nearly all the Christians coming to live in Israel are from ex-Soviet states, immigrants brought in with minimal family ties to Judaism, and they also are persecuted against in Israel, though not nearly as much as what Palestinian Christians and Muslims endure under occupation.

So you're telling me the intolerant Muslims just happened to allow Bethlehem to be 85% Christian for CENTURIES, living in peace and mutual respect with them, and only when the Zionists invaded and occupied them did they start persecuting them? Are you saying that Israel putting curfews, checkpoints, demolishing houses, stealing the farmland, building the wall around, shooting at, harrassing civilians, etc, in BETHLEHEM has nothing to do with the Christians there leaving for fear of life and dignity? You are deluded, John.
The Christians are as much victims of Zionist policy as are the Muslims in Palestine. They were part of the resistance in 1948, they fought and died alongside Muslims in the secular resistance following that, and they support the Islamic resistance, as they know the history of the Muslims protecting them.
It's because of the bile you spill that many Palestinian Christians consider warmongering 'Christian Zionists' of the USA and Europe as heretics and traitors to peace and justice, against everything Jesus taught. They feel betrayed by you. Wake up. Instead of talking crap about the 'intolerant Muslims', why don't you come to Bethlehem and ask them yourself what their problem is.

John Palubiski

MOnkeyZerg, the number of Christians living in Israel, as I stated in my first post, has increased by 270% since the Jewish state was founded. How do you explain such a robust community while maintaining that Zionism is oppressive? I suppose you think that the strangling of Christian communinties in, say, Turkey is the result of "zionism" as well....

Were Bethlehem to be put under DIRECT Israeli occupation, policed and administered DIRECTLY by Israeil authorities, I'm confident that the numbers of Christians would skyrocket.

Let's give that a try and see, shall we?

Let's put the most important Christian heritage sites under Israeli controle and just see what happens to the Christian population.

One other thing, it's far too late to try and convince westerners of radical Islam's peaceful motives when one see the repression...closure of internet cafés, denunciations of western music, acid attacks on unveiled women etc... that has taken place in Gaza lately.

How deluded are you?

Every Christain Arab I've spoken to, whether they be from Gaza, the West Bank, Egypt, Iran or Iraq have ALL told me they left because of the intolerance of radical Islamists.

Christian Arabs understand only too well the mentality of the fundies. They've learned to tailor their speech so as not to offend, so as not to be attacked. Their experiences with Islamist oppression means they can no longer tell you the truth.

And why should they? Presenting you with the brutal truth won't make any difference. They just want to get the hell out.

Think of it as "reverse taqyya".

joe90

These Christina heritage sites, as you call them, have been under, and are under the custodianship of many governments in the region.

The house where St Paul recovered from his blindness can still be visited, despite the many changes of regimes and governments in the intervening period.

The fact that, not only Ancient Christian sites but Jewish and Muslim sites are still extant is testimony to the care and attention they have been given down the centuries by their Middle Eastern owners, who love their own heritage as much as anyone else in the world loves theirs.

How do you think these sites, buildings still exist and have survived for 1,000s of years in some cases,as the Israeli state only came into existence in 1948?

There is 1,000s of years of proof that palestinians care for their own monuments, historical building, important archaeological sites etc -
- where is your proof that the Israeli state is a careful and conscience custodian of non-Jewish sites and artefacts?

You even admit you have no proof that Israel is a reliable curator of antiquities, by asking others to try your little risible thought experiment that Israel should be given a try - despite the 1,000s of years of proof to the contrary that the locals have looked after them. How else do you account for their survival!

As for the rest of your nonsense,
the fact that Bethlehem is under Israeli control doesn't seem to lead you to the logical consclusion about who is responsible for Palestinian Christian de-population and ethnic cleansing.

I am quite sure there are lots of Christians in Israel, although you don't provide any references for your figures. A lot of these latter-day christians are American jihadi racist christian fundamentalists. Not to be confused with the native communities of Palestinians, who go all the way back to the foundations of Christianity itself, like a living thread.

How ironic that the descendents of the first People to convert to Christianity are now being ethnically cleansed, by the supposedly Jewish state of Israel, and American jihadi fundy Christians are taking part in these racist pogroms against innocent defenceless Palestinians. Where is these American jihadis fundy Christians' charity, forgiveness etc

Come to think of it, where is their sense of their own christian history and heritage?

MonkeyZerg

John P, you seem to be of the school of thought that sees only evil in Muslims. Quite frankly, there's no evidence that Muslims treat Christians badly (in the widespread íntolerance' and subjugation you imply) in Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and I suspect that what you talk about in Turkey was the population exchange it had with Greece, under secular rule and not Ottoman rule, and a whole other issue (there are still Christians, churches, etc, and they're doing fine, I dunno what you're talking about. What is visible though, is Turkish restrictions on Muslims, would you talk about that?). The only people who push the myth that Christians are being persecuted by intolerant Muslim Arabs are the warmongering "Christian" missionary crusaders, the Daniel Pipes, and the Zionists who want to make a case for Western Christian support by making it look like they are fighting a common Muslim enemy.

The Christian Palestinians are as much victims from ethnic cleansing as are the Muslim Palestinians. Interestingly, the USA and Canada are helping in removing Christian Palestinians directly. The US and Canadian embassies have been personally calling up Christian families to offer them residence and visas and greencards and to help them in leaving, and many Palestinians have taken up these offers to escape the military occupation and economic devastation they've suffered under the Israelis. Instead of coming to their aid, the USA and Canada has been using their hardships to lure them out of Palestine and make it easier for Israel to take their land. They've been doing this mostly to Christians simply because Western churches offer to help them, but if they did it to Muslims, you'll find many taking on the same offer.

This ain't about evil psychotic fanatical Muslims who oppress Christians even though they're all Palestinian victims of the same occupation, this is ethnic cleansing going on for decades, and certain propagandists trying to divide Palestinians, as they are doing in Iraq.

You idolize Israel, and probably believe it is the only "democracy in the ME" (there are none, I'm not defending Arab countries). You conveniently ignore the Israeli army's documented abuse, vandalism, destruction, and looting of Palestinian churches (and off course mosques), and imply that Muslims do this. Once again, come visit Bethlehem and see for yourself. And produce these Arab Christians from all these countries. What are you? The official receiver of Arab Christian 'refugees'?

MonkeyZerg

By the way, John P, your talk about 'reverse taqiyya' betrays the prejudiced and disinfo sources you probably rely on to support your anti-Muslim bigotry. Any person with a basic knowledge of Islam knows there's no concept of taqiyya in a majority of Muslims, yet these Daniel Pipe types use it to make claims about Muslims they can't substantiate. Conveniently for them, everything good about Islam is 'taqiyya', because these éxperts' know better and can read people's evil intentions.
Nice concept, reverse taqiyya... did you come up with that? So now you imply that any non-Muslim that stands up against injustices against Muslims, or even just happens to be nice to Muslims, is only doing this because of fear or hypocrisy?
This taqiyya is a useful propaganda tool, so you could explain away all sorts of things that contradict your prejudiced world view, by claiming to know people's true intentions. Give it up, we ain't falling for it. Go have tea with your fundie radical Zionist friends.

Sohaib

You say there's no taqiyya?! But you WOULD say that... because you're using taqiyya!! Hah!!

Hmm, see the problem with using this in what is supposed to be a rational discussion?

joe90

Here is an essential website for all your Bethlehem needs -
http://www.openbethlehem.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1>Open Bethlehem

- and some essential Bethlehem blog material
http://www.bethlehemghetto.blogspot.com/>Bethlehem Bloggers

- and the main man himself
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=11683>Apartheid in the Holy Land
Africa's finest, Desmond Tutu!

ainelivia

"Let me say this. The head of the CoE and the Catholic Church better not be going over there only to condemn "Islamic fundamentalism" and to ignore the wall running through the living room. There have been all sorts of strange pronouncements from both churches regarding Islam in recent months, but such an act would be simply beyond the pale."

What say you now Osama? What do you think of the Archbishop's comments? Still think he is "ignoring" the wall?

Just to paraphrase you a little, "Let me say this, Osama Saeed better not be using this opportunity to do a "Doubting Thomas" on the Christian leaders and ignoring his own projections and pithy expectations of these men, borne out of his own personal paranoia". Tis thee methinks who is reaching beyond his own personal pale.

Beanachti na Nollaig Osama.

Osama

Ainelivia, kya keray ho?

Regarding the visits of the CoE and Catholic Church to Bethlehem, my analysis is that they did a lot of faffing around the issues.

When you have the Christian Mayor saying:
"The [Israeli] occupation is solely the cause of Christian families leaving here and seeking a life elsewhere," he said. "We happily live in co-existence with our Arab Muslim brothers."
Scotland on Sunday

See also my post regarding the Catholic Patriarch of Jerusalem's desperate attempts to get his Christian brethren to do something last Christmas.

All the English Christian delegation noted that their flocks back home weren't doing anything about the issue. With such a lack of leadership, it's hardly surprising.

joe90

http://umkahlil.blogspot.com/2006/12/zionists-systematically-destroy.html>Zionists Systematically Destroy Cultural Traditions
from Umkahlil's blog,
A Palestinian Christian Refugee whose land and property has been stolen by racist ethnic cleansers and genocidist - and these atrocities continue and are on-going against her, her family and her community.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6293.shtml>Archbishop of Canterbury Condemns Israeli Wall Around Bethlehem
Report from Open Bethlehem
22 Dec 2006
from Electronic Intifada

This contains the speech by Archbishop Williams, where there is no condemnation of Israeli ethnic cleansing against even the Christians of Bethlehem, never mind its good Muslim folk - they are the one community, I'm just pointing out something about Williams.

No endorsement of a boycott of Apartheid Israel either. Williams is inside the israeli warsaw ghetto of Bethlehem and all its victims trapped inside get treated to, is the usual non-commital big fat white elephant christian speeches, that the likes him are famous for.

Mind you, he is yet to criticise Tony Blair for his racist war crimes, but then again, supporting western war crimes and racism, is Williams's job. Why should he treat the racist Israeli government any differently?

ainelivia

Cara Osama, whilst I check out the refs you offered. I think I've figured it out. For you nothing anyone else does, is "good enough", their actions in order to meet with your standards have to be the actions you wish, as opposed to the actions they feel that in conscience they wish to take.

You are behaving in a paternal, and control-freaking parental (at that) mode.

I don't take issue with how you see Bush, Blair, Israel, Palestine etc. I take issue with your consistently criticising the efforts of others and judging them insufficient in some way only you can define; whilst the best effort attempted here, it appears, to bring justice and peace to those being unjustly treated, is to cause a rumpus at certain sporting events where the Israeli's have the temerity to turn up. It seems the conflict is enjoyed much more than any attempt to actually bring it to a close. (Note the similarities with the Irish situation.)

Show some evidence that you actually wish to see an end to bloodshed, conflict and a daily loss of life, by taking steps to bring it about, and I mean you personally, without the posse that seems to gather around.

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