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15 November 2006

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Ted

Really horrible story. I cannot begin to imagine the internal workings of a mind that carries out such acts.

Abu Sinan

I guess it is going to be harder for us Americans to continue to say "lets wait until they get a fair trial" to say anything.

Abu Sahajj
"I cannot begin to imagine the internal workings of a mind that carries out such acts."
Its simple just look at U.S. operations in the area... quite frankly the soldier's behavior seems a microcosmic representation of the inapt handling of this entire Iraq affair... rape, pillage and plunder in the name of "Freedom" or is it "hedonism", I keep getting those mixed up?

It all feels a little reminiscent of those old days of colonialism, which by-the-way are the Brit's claim to fame. Indeed I'm getting a little exhausted with making excuses for the sake of objective penning.

John Palubiski

The Iraq war was an unjust war. It was launched using faulty intelligence reports and it is now tearing the country apart.

The worst is yet to come because as the Americans depart the sectarian strife and the tit-for-tat killings will only increase.

I can't say much in favour of the former regime, but at least it always kept a lid on religious extremism.

Iraq has always been an artificial state cobbled together patchwork style. One thing's for sure; the map of the whole region will probably look very different in ten years time.

Abu Sahajj
"The worst is yet to come because as the Americans depart the sectarian strife and the tit-for-tat killings will only increase."
Why is that? Why would they only increase, its not like the U.S. is doing anything to stop it or protect the people for that matter. Don't be naive our troops are out there protecting the interests of a few rich white-men, thats all.

And to their dismay the U.S. is being kiddie-cornered out of its place in terms of global-power because everyone knows... energy is where its at... our scientific developments are in the toilet and our last hope at acquiring a footing in the energy race flew out the window with the Iraq-debacle.

We can't trade with non-consumables forever... what are we producing these days... media and marketing!? For example GE is now the largest media house in the US and possibly the world if it surpassed LVMH and Gates doesn't count he's an island. When the energy race picks up it will be like the "Great Game" all over again.

Ted

"Its simple just look at U.S. operations in the area"

I'm not sure it is as simplistic as saying that it's because they're US soldiers or it's colonialism - whatever that means. Rape and murder of innocents goes on across the world and not just in war situations. I was simply saying that I cannot grasp the mentality of such actions irrespective of where and when they occur.

Osama

Is there any such thing as a nice occupation though? Don't these things inevitably happen on the back of wars?

Ted

Well, it's fairly obvious that if they weren't there then it wouldn't have happened. I don't think anyone's going to win an award for that observation. I wouldn't want anyone to paint broad strokes about the US army on the basis of this crime or to believe it proves anything about the war in Iraq - which I have long been opposed to, before anyone asks.

It would be like linking crimes committed by foreign nationals to the debate on immigration. The policy is not flawed because of that particular effect of the policy, in other words. It's flawed on its own terms.

John Palubiski

Is there any such thing as a nice occupation though? Don't these things inevitably happen on the back of wars?

That's not necessarily true, Ossama.

HIstory presents some good examples where occupations were beneficial.

For instance, when Ancient Rome invaded Gaul and "Britannia" the locals fought and revolted and complained of the "foreigners".

However those foreigners brought a systeme of writing, a legal code and technological advancements. Still, though, throughout the nearly 5 centuries of roman occupation the locals always complained.

Then, In the early 5th century the legions were withdrawn. In the case of Britian historians tell us that nearly half the population of the isle assembled near Dover to see them off. They attitude wasn't one of "good riddance", but rather enormous reticence. They stood atop the cliffs in reverential silence and watched, hearts filled with dread and apprehension, as the ships faded off into the distance.

It would be a thousand years before England would climb out of the hole that history was about to throw them into.

You never know what you've got till it's gone.

Iraq, of course, is not Roman Britian...I just wanted to cite an example.

Abu Sinan

John,

You are aware that the Germans had a system of writing pre-Roman invasion right? It wasnt the Roman alphabet, does that mean it doesnt count?

Why is it that people who support colonial adventures always have to prove how much they "helped" the victims?

Here in the New World millions of American Indians were slaughtered, but hey, isnt their life better now? Take a look at any reservation here in the USA, wow, much better off.

I am glad we came and brought the wheel to the savages.

joe90

John,
I know quite a bit about British Late Roman history - Iron age archaeology and I have never come across this send off at Dover
- would you like to give me a reference for that?

So nothing happened after the Romans left 'England', as you anachronistically call it

'England' was actually Wales, or Greater Wales-Brittany (in contrsat to Lesser Brittany in France) as it was full of Welsh folk except for above the Forth-Clyde Isthmus (hence Antonine Wal) which was peopled by Picts. Not a single Englishman is sight, I'm afraid.

And as for England's hole, I quite agree - but I still don't think they have managed to crawl out of it yet, persoanlly speaking.

I think you'll find John, most of Scotland remained unconquered (notice the word), and rejected all these benefits that Rome brought with it to us backward types. Just to quote Tacitus on Roman activities in the rest of Greater Wales-Britian
they create a desolation and call it peace
This is quite an acurate description of the effects of the aggression of the US and its client regimes (Irsael, UK) on Occupied Palestine, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Iraq

I see John has trundled out the usual specious arguments to justify illegal violent takeovers and occupations of other people by regimes which are technologically advanced but morally bacward -
ie
'the white man's burden'
'manifest destiny'

Bringing civilisation and christianity to backward savages has always been the excuse whenever violent greedy entities such as the Great White Father in his House in Washington wants to steal someone else's land and resources and turn the local population into slaves.

How else can you justify western conquest, occupation and the continued plundering of weak defenceless Gloabal South-Third World except to say that its good for the natives!

keith malone

This crime took place in a muslim country and the zionist US soldier should have been tried under sharia law. I am against the US-zionist occupation but I am worried that there were not 4 male witnesses to this crime and it is possible that this Iraqi enticed him into commiting adultery.

joe90

Worry no more Keith,
Iraq is country under foreign illegal military occupation and, therefore, the laws that apply in this instance are the Geneva Conventions, all 4 of them, plus the two additional amendments made in 1977.

I hope that clears up your ignorance but I doubt it.

By the way,
I love that image by John whatsisname,
of half the cultured, civilised, native, Celtic, Welsh population of Briton
(all of present-day Britain up to the Forth-Clyde isthmus - above this narrowest part of 'Britain', it's all Pictland)
turning out to wave goodbye to the equally cultured and civilsed Romans -
- thus began the traditional 'Middle Ages which took 'England' a thousand years to get over.

http://www.antonineway.com/antonine-way/main/main.htm>Antonine's Way

Too true!
After the Romans left, the English arrived
ie the Anglo-Saxons
thus ushering in a period of unequalled barabarity, cruelty and savagery which continues to this day.
Some of us would argue they should rebuild this again
http://www.hadrians-wall.org/>Hadrian's Wall
- these ancients knew a thing or two (unlike this current lot)!

ajsuhail

John P,

glad to welcome you to a Muslim site for a change!Maybe, you will learn something yet.A welcome change from Kathy Shaidle and Right Girl eh?

ainelivia

AS wrote "Why is it that people who support colonial adventures always have to prove how much they "helped" the victims?"

Irish writer Brendan Behan had a riposte to that, "Fair exchange is no robbery, they gave us the English Language, and we gave them back English Literature."

Goes both ways as usual I think.

ainelivia

Ah come on Joe, did you really miss the inverted irony in Keith's comment. Myself I'd want four female witnesses.

Luckily "ignorance" of (inverted) irony is not a capital offence.

Actually, it is strange that any system of laws would expect "witnesses" to a rape. In most countries, any independant witness would be considered to have colluded in the crime, and be tried as an accessory.

Osama

John P, you didn't have to go back very far in history at all for a positive occupying force then.

Ainelivia, it is indeed a perverted form of shariah that requires 4 witnesses for rape. The most famous incidence of this is in Pakistan where I've heard distinguished Islamic scholars from the country condemn the practice of the judiciciary in requiring this in rape cases.

Despite Keith's ironic call for shariah in trying the soldiers, the remaining 3 are facing the death penalty in the US.

John Palubiski

Well, Osama, I can't say I didn't work at it a little.

Seriously, though, at this stage of the game in Iraq any American pullout....and a pullout appears to be in the works...will leave people much more vulnerable. There's simply insufficient central authority remaining to hold things together.

As most people know, there's no war like a religious war.

joe90

I couldn't resist this one from Tacitus,
regarding the dubious advantages of the coming of Roman 'civilisation' to the Ancient Welsh -

Agricola, the governer of Britian..
..privately encouraged and publicly subsidised the building of temples, forums, and houses..
until the natives came to cultivate
..the allurements of vice, porticoes, baths and smart dinner-parties.

(Tacitus 'Agricola 21)

Ouch!

ps
the 'Ancient Welsh' are commonly disguised by English Imperialists as 'the Ancient Britons'.

These English Imperialists types, such as you find at the BBC, can't bring themselves to admit that the 'Ancient Welsh' are, in fact, the real and original owners of what has since become known as 'England'.

Or the fact that the cultured, civilised land of 'Ancient Wales' was stolen and taken over vy a bunch of educationally sub-normal, beer-vomiting German pyschopaths
ie the Anglo- Saxons
of whom, a fair proportion of the current population of England are descended from, and it shows!

Hence, the reason and the need to imply some kind of logical unbroken progression from 'Ancient Briton' down to present day 'Modern Britian'.
Thus, these English Imperialists attempt to airbrush out of history the profound dis-continuity in civilised mores and behaviour that these Scepterd Isles suffered with the coming of the English hordes of barbarians who brought with them all sorts of bestial and depraved pracitices which continue to this day.
I am sure, gentle reader, I don't need to spell out what the legions of depraved English savages get up to. I am sure you already know, sufficed it to say its a real can of worms!

joe90

As most people know, there's no war like a religious war.

- yes, just like WWI perhaps,
- or even WWII
- or the attack invasion and destruction of Vietnam by US ideological brainwashed fanatcis who dropped more eploives onto Vietnam than were dropped in the whole of WWII
- or the Korean War ,where the US completely obliterated the whole of Korea in order to save it for democracy, of course - nothing religious about it

Or,
- Hiroshima
- Nagasaki
- Auschwitz
- Pol Pot
- East Timor
- Iraq v Iran

- or the current bloodbath in Iraq, being carried out by the usual bunch of sub-normal western socio-paths, running the usual human slaughter into which uppity locals are fed in order to teach them a lesson in western values and western morality

I wish, if there were going to be wars they should be religious and not secular - that way there wouldn't be so many tens of millions of victims of western war criminals strewn across bombed out lunar landscapes

ainelivia

Osama wrote: "perverted form of shariah".

I'd agree with that. Undemocratic, no jury of peers, evidence only to be believed if there are "male witnesses".

Patriarchy at it's worst. We did have a similar situation in the "Western" world. We've worked to change it.

ainelivia

Joe90 wrote:"- or the current bloodbath in Iraq, being carried out by the usual bunch of sub-normal western socio-paths, running the usual human slaughter into which uppity locals are fed in order to teach them a lesson in western values and western morality".

Lets just forget the internicine, sectarian, inter-Muslim, Shia, Sunni, killings and murders. Of course they do not have to take responsibility for their actions because they can blame..... oh yes the West.

ainelivia

Osama wrote: "the remaining 3 are facing the death penalty in the US."

Prison yes, death penalty no.

ainelivia

Joe 90's list
"- Hiroshima
- Nagasaki
- Auschwitz
- Pol Pot
- East Timor
- Iraq v Iran"

which should read

"- Hiroshima
- Nagasaki
- Auschwitz
- Bergen-Belsen
- Dachau
- Sobibor
- Mathausen
- Treblinka
- Lodz Ghetto
- Krakow Ghetto
- Warsaw Ghetto
- Pol Pot
- East Timor
- Iraq v Iran
- and the Stalinist Labour Camps the names of which we do not know.

I'm sure there is more.


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