Helping Tayside Police

I spoke at a fantastic public meeting on civil liberties in Dundee on Monday. It was called in light of the recent activities of special branch in Dundee (see letter that was written to them detailing the concerns - Download SBCCU3.pdf).

Fellow panellists Aamer Anwar and Tommy Sheridan pulled out at the last moment. No matter, because they would have had a tough job being as good as their stand ins. Richard Haley from SACC was tub-thumping and witty, while in Esther Sassaman, Dundee have acquired a sassy fresh activist from the US. Shona Robison MSP also spoke and showed some much needed leadership on the issue, while Carlo Morelli from the University and Colleges Union spoke against the monitoring of "Asian looking" students.

The room was packed out, people standing at the back and sitting in the aisles. During the Q&A members of the public also narrated their own experiences of police intrusion. One of them wanted to know who the Courier staff reporter there was. He identified himself and stood up like he was going to take a bow, only for the questioner to berate him about another story the paper did. I felt sorry for him and Sumiya, who was chairing the event, intervened. Now I wish she had let him continue.

Because after the event, the Courier has tried to create division by claiming on their front page headline that I urged "non-cooperation" with the police. However, they pointedly failed to bring forward a single statement where I did any such thing (the next day they did eventually get around to including my opinions on cooperation with the police).

Confusion amongst Muslims abounded as a result, with some community leaders apparently coming out and condemning me (ignoring the Quranic commandment of verifying info). All the mosques in Dundee have now though signed a letter denouncing the Dundee Courier's journalism and backing the public meeting on Monday - Download Courierletterofcomplaint1.pdf

Tayside Police joined in to express their "disappointment" at my supposed comments. The smokescreen diverts us away from the main issue. The police know that I don't back non-cooperation - I had a meeting with them that very afternoon. We said relations have to be strengthened, particularly as no force in Scotland has as bad relations with their Muslim community as Tayside Police do with theirs. A number of proposals were made, and we said we'd review the situation in three months.

The background to this is that last year, Tayside Police set up the "Special Branch Community Contact Unit" which was to reach into the Muslim community. One of the things it has been criticised for is randomly approaching and questioning people, even at their homes, because they happen to be Muslim.

One of the concerns that the police said to us that they had was of isolated Muslims being vulnerable to brainwashing by extremists. The police's actions have however been creating the very isolation they fear. Muslims are afraid to go to the mosque in case they are questioned and membership of the Dundee Islamic Society has fallen lest students fall under the radar of special branch.

The tactics are isolating Muslims, fostering bad relations between them and the police, and will not foil terrorism if it exists in Dundee – all three being the exact opposite of their stated aims. The fight against terrorism must be intelligence led, not led by the creed of members of the public. Their approach is like finding a needle in the haystack, but it assumes that Muslims are just one big haystack and indeed that there is a needle to find in the first place.

I was shocked to hear that Ann Alexander, an activist who highlights the plight of the men detained under the Terorrism Acts, was due to speak at a Muslim event in the city, only to be cancelled at the last minute in favour of a special branch speaker.

Given the strength of feeling and purpose at and after Monday's meeting, and the hysterical reaction of the press, its clear the protests have hit a nerve and we'll be returning to a position of normality soon.

Comments

[Mustafa Arif]

What is the ethnic mix like in Dundee? I've never been it sounds like it must be pretty segregated.

[Osama]

Only 3000 Muslims, no real areas of concentrated population.

[Martin]

Osama,

Justin Raimondo - 'Liars don't link -

Dundee Curiier Report No.1 -

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/11/07/newsstory8939138t0.asp

Dundee Courier Report No. 2 -

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/11/08/newsstory8943089t0.asp

They have the tape, and you haven't linked to their reports.

Sloppy journalistic ethics, Osama...

[Utbah]

I just knew that was a witch hunt against you. Those Muslims who condemned you, make sure you ask them to retract it, if not. Let me deal with these guys.

Which leaders came out attacking you?

[Richard]

For a response to the attack on Osama, see
http://www.sacc.org.uk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=299&catid=27

For some more background on the activities of the Tayside Special Branch Community Contact Unit, see
http://www.sacc.org.uk/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=300&catid=27

[Osama]

Thanks for the links Martin, only had hard copies, tried to Google News it but nothing had come up. Links included in the piece above now. I know they have the tapes and transcript, it's just a shame they didn't bother reading it.

Utbah, JAK for the support, but let's just say the guilty did get a bit of a caning from people at the mosque, and as I said, Muslims in Dundee have now united behind the statement I linked to above.

[Esther]

The energy and optimism in the room was incredible. It's so good to hear about the unity built around the letter. Might it be possible to host the letter off Typepad which requires you to register a blog before viewing the content?

[Osama]

Hurmph, I'm sure Typepad never used to require that. I've changed it so you can access it now.

[altaf hussain]

i spoke to mr bashir chohan on tuesday afternoon and again in the evening. he said i've never heard of osama saeed and admitted that he was not at the meeting. i personally gave him a leaflet after friday prayers but he conviently can't remember this.

[John Mellor]

So you think people should co=operate with this police unit then?

[Osama]

John, the debate has now been framed around letting the police do whatever they want and being totally opposed to them.

It is not such an grotesque extreme choice as I'm sure you'll be able to read in the above post. We highlighted specific actions we were opposed to and the police agreed to review them.

[Sohaib]

Not having heard of Osama Saeed isn't something to be proud of. I don't imagine that everyone should have heard of him, but being ignorant isn't a badge of honour. If Chohan has any acquaintance with Scottish media, he should have heard of Osama Saeed. If he has paid any attention to the anti-war movement, he should have heard of Osama Saeed.

[John Mellor]

Osama,
No offense but having read both Courier articles, it seems pretty obvious to me they refer to the actions of one specific police unit, not the police as a whole and that it's actually you trying to reduce the argument to such broad terms!
Do you think people should co-operate with the "specific actions" you say you are opposed to while police review them?

[joe90]

to reduce the argument to such broad terms
- if you are 'reducing' an argument, then surely you can't be 'broadening' its terms as well ?

If the Police are carrying out a 'review', this implies they acknowldege some grey area.

I would have thought the Police would let the Public know what they should do in terms of cooperating with them, in the meantime, until they are able to clarify matters.

If in doubt give the Police a phone. That is what they are their for and they'll put you right in the picture.

I find my local Police more than helpful whenever I go to them for help or advice. They a great bunch of people and I have no end of respect for them all and support them in all the work they do!

[John Mellor]

Joe90 - in this case broad means simple, wide, unfocused. Capice?

[joe90]

You haven't answered my question -
- how can you reduce something if you broaden it at the same time?

I thought if you were reducing something, you were,
- narrowing in;
- distilling the elements;
- sorting the wheat from the chaff;
- eliminating background noise and interference;
- capturing the essence;
- the micro view;
- exactly what I am doing now!

Where as broadening something was roughly the exact opposite,
- taking the long view;
- generalising;
- summarising;
- the macro view;
- you get the big picture!

'broad' doesn't mean whatever you want it to mean, and if you are going to give a brand-new meaning to well-used word then you are going to have to let people know, otherwise you are going to get people like me asking you what it is you mean.

As I said,
a quick phone call to Tayside Police and they will advise you on how you can help them, and yourself, in the matter your are interested in.

I only say this because I have a vague feeling Osama is going to say roughly the same thing as me -
- although Osama's observations and conclusions never cease to surprise and inform me in lots of good ways.

[John Mellor]

Dearie me Joe90, I fear you're being wilfully awkward but I'll try and make myself clearer for you because I am a patient, kind and generous man.

Reductionism is reducing something, in this case an argument, to something simpler and more fundamental.

In this case taking the relative complexities about the role of the special branch unit and boiling it down to not liking the police as a whole.

A statement that is not only less complex (reduced) but speaking in generalised (broader) terms.

I must have missed the bit in Osama's speech where he said people should do exactly what they are told by the police.

[joe90]

'Reductionism' is taken to mean over-simplification -
- reducing something to its irredicuble fundamental elements,
which means that what is not of the essence of the matter is discarded and what is is kept,
thus our resolution and focus has narrowed in from the world at large,
to isolate and examine more closely what it is that is the subject of our enquiry,
or what we think it is, rightly or wrongly

ie genetics used to explain human behaviour, which doesn't and can't

A statement broken down into its individual elements is one that is a collection of propositions that can be individually seperated out and examined by themselves

ie propositions are simpler and smaller and therefore reduced to the point where they cannot reduced any further

ie Bertrand Russell's logical atomism

Put the propositions back together they become a more complex, more sophisticated and therefore more rich in explanatory power and meaning, and are therfeore more inclusive, more sweeping and more generalised,
broadly speaking

[johnmellor1977]

broadly speaking?

Funny choice of words. Joe90, are you really a puppet?

In the sense you just used it, it suggests you're not being wholly specific. Speaking vaguely, a bit simply, not delving into the nitty gritty. Arguing on those terms isn't making things more complicated, is it?

[johnmellor1977]

Anyway, Joe, let's return to the point at hand, this toing and froing could go on for many a month.

Osama said, "the debate has now been framed around letting the police do whatever they want and being totally opposed to them"

Who, other than Osama, has been doing that?

[joe90]

Exactly John mate,
I'm sorry to be pendantic -
- and I was just thinking that to simplify is to look more broadly,
I take your point

The name 'Scotland' is simple but represents a complex entity,
it is a symbol that is perfectly understandable to people as it stands,
it simplifies something very complicated,
so to simplify in these terms is to think broadly (or is that vice-versa?)!

All the best John

ps
I am starved of philosophical debate and tend to enthusiastically over react and indulge myself

[johnmellor77]

I am confused myself now. First time an internet debate didn't end in name calling though. one for the record books.

[Osama]

Osama said, "the debate has now been framed around letting the police do whatever they want and being totally opposed to them"

Who, other than Osama, has been doing that?

John, perhaps you could explain why you're here talking to me about cooperation with the police then. It has nothing to do with any of my dealings with Tayside Police.

[johnmellor77]

What has nothing to do with your co-operation with Tayside Police?

I came here because on Monday you were pretty clear that you thought people should not answer questions put to them by special branch and that we should resist them. The next day, you say your quotes have been taken out of context and you think people should co-operate with the police and that The Courier is trying to "create a division".
The SACC then defend you by saying you support their call not to help the SBCCU with their questions!
This is pretty confusing, surely you can see that?
You then say the entire discussion has been "framed around letting the police do whatever they want and being totally opposed to them."
Where has this been done other than in your statements? Both Dundee papers (The Courier and The Evening Telegraph) have carried stories raising concerns about this unit over the past few months so why would they suddenly start changing their tack?

I only ask because I live in Dundee, attended Monday's meeting and read the courier. I thought the report on Tuesday was pretty fair and gave an accurate picture of the meeting and your speech as well as the genral tone of the meeting. Why did you climb down the next day? When did resistance become full co-operation? Refusing to co-operate with the unit seems a basic right to me, why have you changed your mind and think people should help them?
I don't think i'm being naive in saying this is not an issue where sitting on the fence is an option.

[Osama]

John, you are indeed a very confused person. You were at the meeting, you'll know then that I said nothing about cooperation. Specific actions of the SBCCU were condemned. I stand by that. I don't believe it's an option for the police to continue with them, and between you and I, I don't think they will. As for if they do, I didn't give any advice as to whether to "cooperate" with an officer standing at your door asking about your politics because you're a Muslim. Maybe you would, some wouldn't. It doesn't matter. The point is that many people feel this to be intimidating, criminalising, and the practice should cease.