The big debate

Spare a thought today for the poor women that Jack Straw exposed in more ways than one yesterday. They may wear the niqab for all sorts of reasons, but the minimum that will be happening to them within their families is a sense of embarrassment at Straw's revelation that he disrobed them, and maybe worse.

But Straw doesn't care, as long as he gets his "debate". It's absurd how these ministers keep popping up calling for a debate in their speeches and articles, only for them to slink back into their Westminster bubble after opening up a hornet's nest.

We do need a debate about a lot of things regarding the Muslim community, but not with Jack Straw choosing the topic and the timing. He's had thirty years to raise these points of advice with his Muslim constituents, but chooses now, in a newspaper article to do it.

We are witnessing a spiralling race to the bottom as to which party can malign the Muslim community the most. The Tories have professed reform on the environment, sexuality, racism and social justice, but their new found optimism does not extend to the Muslim community.

In one of the late night moments that I am less proud of, I was watching the Tory conference on the Parliament channel a couple of days ago. One of the delegates from Islington started on an astonishing rant from the podium about how Muslims weren't integrating, that they're doing nothing about terrorism, that they come to meetings with the government and demand shariah and Muslim bank holidays. He left the stage to rapturous applause.

David Cameron took his turn. He leaked his "Ban Muslim ghettos" line to the Evening Standard in advance. The point I make to him and Straw is that the issues you raise may well be true. But the manner in which you do it, and the result which you achieve in the media and then on the ground, smacks of insincerity.

Let's leave aside serious analysis just now of what ghettos are, whose fault they are and what the result of this is for community relations. Does the Conservative leader think that Muslims choose to live in squalor? I wish he had sent a positive message out to us - that you have among the worst social indicators in poverty, education, crime, employment and housing of any group in this country and a Tory government want to help lift you out of it.

Surely if people are sincere, then they try to engage people on the best of terms?

I like to think I'm a pretty well integrated Muslim. But I despair when I see the talk of the gutter that we've seen over the last couple of days. It's men and women like me who should be taking these "debates" to the Muslim community. There are big problems and we need to address them.

Instead we find ourselves constantly on the defensive, battling against the fallout from the likes of Straw, Cameron, Kelly, Reid, Blair or whoever else wants to appear tough, talking tough to the Muslims.

Comments

[Sadat]

Brother Joe,

You are a brave conscientious Hanif (i.e. a non-Muslim who is a friend of Islam). You are thousand times better than a Kafir (i.e. a non-Muslim who is a enemy of Islam) and a Munafiq (i.e. a non-practising Muslim who is an enemy of Islam)!

I salute your integrity from the bottom of my heart. I will pray for you and your family's well-being.

Mujahids (i.e. freedom fighters) always protect Hanifs against the mischiefs of Kafirs and Munafiqs in the face of adversity.

[joe90]

I am very touched by that mate!

Whenever my Palestinian pals say I give them ideas or that I'm doing something they think is worthwhile, it is the greatest compliment I can be paid -
- likewise your very heartfelt thanks!

Sadat,
my good friend, I do what I do because it is your good self, your family and your own community which is being 'attacked' and have asked for my help -

- and not in any demeaning sense, such as the Israeli regime begging more money off US taxpayers etc -

- but in the true sense that Refugee and Occupied Palestinians ask for help - as one equal person to another -

- and also in the sense that it is you who lead me and tell me what I can do to help you in your times of trouble - I don't tell you, you tell me!

Let me assure you my good friend there are many people who think like me, that is why Raving Madman at 'The Scum' newspaper, Tony Blair, Cameron etc need to keep up this propaganda barrage, otherwise there would be no issue whatsoever -

It is those who have all the wealth and all the power who are the real problems - always were, always will be!

As far as I am concerned Sadat mate, the more people like your good self the merrier!

Come to Scotland, why don't you ?
We've just cuffed France 1-0! (and England could only manage a draw with Macedonia, ha ha ha ha! - Hanson was a picture!)

ps
I am sorry for the sweary word I mentioned regarding the English and the imagery of Jack the Lad in his constituency office with an 'ordinary' female constituent -
- I know Muslim folk are very well-mannered and very well-spoken and among some of the most sociable people anyone is likely to meet!

[Sunny]

Oh look, joe90 will be protected by a bigot. Joe will you let us know now whether you've ever had a ham sandwich or smoked a joint to see if Sadat still stands by your "integrity"?

[joe90]

Sunny jim thinks he's onto winner here -

- I know this because she/he keeps asking me the same question about my own personal appetites and imagines this is important to the world at large -

- it isn't and neither is sunny -

- it is about as important as what I had for breakfast this morning, whose answer is about on the same scale of signicance as sunny is -

- and it doesn't bother me one jot whether I care to answer you or not, believe me - divulge yourself of your own importance, you have none -

- see ,I've still not bothered to answer you except to sum up your insignificance, and believe me, you are insignificant!

[DrM]

Dont weep Sunny, just bring some intelligence to your posts and I may take you seriously. Here's a tip: no one will ever know that you've had a lobotomy if you wear a wig to hide to the scars; stop posting your drivel on message boards, and learn to control the slobbering.

[keith Malone]

This debate is divert attention away from the holocaust that is taking place in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine and Kashmir. It then draws more attention to muslim who suffer more islamophobia. Oh and I have just been banned from posting at harry's place, so much for free speech. Who is the real (neo-con zionist) fascist now!

[ainelivia]

"Ainelivia, so is it not possible to write or email our MPs now because they can't see our faces? Can't speak on the phone?"

Osama, that is not a fair comparison, and I think you really know that. The whole issue here is that someone hiding their identity is seen in this culture as someone with "questionable intent".

The other element is that what Straw's article has stimulated is discussion of this practice, which is not a practice we in the UK have much experience of. That debate is necessary, because it gives people an opportunity to voice their concerns, which are valid. Also gives them the opportunity to vent their feelings about this and that in itself is a safety valve.

My experience of the veil is much the same as seeing a nun, and I have no negative feelings about it. The Niquab, however, stirs up very uncomfortable feelings in me. I find this practice "creepy". Now in the past few days I have expressed those feelings with Muslim friends, and none were offended.

Perhaps this discussion is more for the benefit of non-Muslims, we need to be able to discuss our views; and after listening to Vannessa Feltz on Friday morning, I realise there is much negative stuff out there. So let the "hate" stuff burn itself out on talks shows etc. (the more dangerous elements will just need careful watching).

And another reason I believe that it is the non-Muslims who need this debate. Right now the biggest examples of hiding the identity that I can think of are IRA and more recent "terrorist activity"; we need to break any link between that mental construct and a woman's right to choose how she would like to dress, in the minds of the non-Muslim population.

[ainelivia]

"ps
I am sorry for the sweary word I mentioned regarding the English and the imagery of Jack the Lad in his constituency office with an 'ordinary' female constituent - "

Thank you Joe

[ainelivia]

"Ask the Catholics, and they didn't have much changing to do."

That's a matter of perspective, Osama, and I'd have to disagree with you. When I first came to this country, it became more of an effort to maintain my faith's practise, as in ROI, all religious holidays are the equivalent of Bank Hols here.

[Osama]

Fair point, I should have said their were less changes than those who came from further.

[joe90]

I know many Catholics, and they didn't have to change much about themselves when they arrived here, if anything - so what were these huge changes that put your RC faith in moral peril?

And I appreciate the fact you're always eager to find something to be outraged about or find fault with, (a typical British tabloid trait) my psuedo-irish interlocutor - but I wasn't apologising for anything, and especially not to a war crime supporter like youself -
- you have plenty apologising of your own to be getting on with,
ie apologising for Blair, for Bush, for racist mass-muredring occupations abroad etc etc

[ainelivia]

Osama, I don't think there is a "should" for you really, if it was not part your experience, then you wouldn't be aware of it. And though that was how I experienced living in the UK compared to Ireland, I'm not sure that currently Irish people coming to UK will feel the same.

[ainelivia]

Hey Joe, not more "veiled insults"............

[Martin]

Joe,

You're quite wrong, there is a migration cycle.

The immigrant arrives. They establish themselves in trade or commerce.

Their more able children should reap the benefits in terms of advancement into the professions via higher education.

Your ignorance of history is startling. Nobody went to Reagan for advice because he was ill - like all ideologues who claim to speak on behalf of 'the poor' or 'the oppressed' you have allowed your intellectual rigidity and doctrinaire conceit to overwhelm your humanity. One wonders whether the people on whose behalf you claim to speak deserve a more worthy advocate.

Contrary to what you might think about what transpired at the Reagan-Gorbachev Reykjavik summit, Reagan's offer was conditional upon the retention of the Strategic Defence Initiative, the so-called 'Star Wars' program - it was Gorbachev's insistence that SDI should be included within any agreement that caused the talks to collapse.

Foolish critics of Reagan argue that he was a warmonger, when Reykjavik showed him to be precisely the opposite. He was prepared to make sweeping concessions - the Soviets would not concede but wanted it all. Reagan refused, and now the Soviets are ancient history.

There's a moral in there somewhere.

Perhaps ignorance of world history is only to be expected in one so ignorant of British history. Contrary to what you believe the Acts of Union were passed by (relatively) democratically elected parliaments. At that point the franchise was not universal, for sure - but they expressed the popular will of both the English and Scottish peoples.

Wales has not been an independent country for millenia, so I don't know precisely where the Welsh lackeys might have been hiding out.

Irish lackeys? Where? Parnell? O'Connell? Tone?

It is distressing to see you refer to Muslims as neo-Nazis. The word 'ummah' is often translated, perhaps wrongly, as meaning the 'Islamic nation'; and as defective as your knowledge and throught processes are, I don't think you'd deliberately go so far as to make such an appalling smear against this blog's author.

Nations are creatures of law, not race or faith - and anyone who argues to the contrary might have some race issues of their own that they should work through.

The historic migration, and later immigration, experiences of Muslims and Irish Catholics differ wildly. My own ancestors who moved to Scotland did so before 1921, and so were British citizens by birth - yet in 1923 the Church of Scotland published a blatantly sectarian document entitled 'The Menace of the Irish Race to our Scottish Nationality'. It has long since been repudiated - yet no Muslim can really say with hand on heart and in the desire to speak truth to both their god and their prophet that they have ever encountered such offical hostility upon arriving in this country. Private hostility, yes, undoubtedly - official hostility towards them and their faith, no. If they do say such things, then I'm sorry but I don't believe them and I think they're telling lies.

[ainelivia]

'The Menace of the Irish Race to our Scottish Nationality'

Aha, so now I know where you are coming from Joe. Menace indeed, we gave you Billy Connolly. And no it was not fair exchange! I want him back.

[Osama]

Martin, to express such a thing as you said at th end of your post, would not be to "lie", it would simply be to express an opinion, which others may well disagree with. Let's not call each other names.

[Martin]

Osama,

I take your point, and therefore must make myself absolutely clear -

I do not believe that any Muslim can say with a measure of honesty that they have ever encountered official hostility of the same character and degree of the kind exemplified by documents such as 'The Menace of the Irish Race to our Scottish Nationality'.

Having once had a relatively good working knowledge of the legislation relating to industrial relations, that's my opinion.

[joe90]

migration cycle
- you've just invented this complete with duff a definition that merely satisfies your own racist prejudices - hardly an emprically based scientific principle

Ronnie Raygun was a first class moron, and he wasn't ill when his presidency ended -
- what this mystery illness?

And no I'm sorry you're just repeating the usua propaganda - this is how moronic Raygun and his supporters are -
- you see Ronnie Raygun actually believed US propaganda, that the US wanted to rid the world of evil nuclear weapons, so on his own personal initiative and without any of his controllers around, who normally tell him what to say and think, he made Gorby the offer of mutual nuclear disarmament -

Gorby jumped at the chance, but naturally was made out to be the neny of the peace, when the offer had to be withdrawn as US defence expenditure has nothing much to do with anything that goes on outside the US

ie the US will never get rid of nuclear weapons, it isn't interested in peace or disarmament, or any of the liberal leftie wishy-washy stuff -
- military public expediture in the US is the primary method of subsidisy for rich private corporations -

Soviet offers of 1986
- US to join unilateral Soviet test ban
-removal of US and Soviet fleets from the Mediterranean
- steps towards dismantling NATO and Warsaw Pact
- outlawing sea-launched cruse missiles
- etc etc

1986 US boycotted UN disarmament conference

Things got so bad for the US Warfare State for the Rich that Vice Prez George Shultz called on Gorby to 'end public diplomacy' which was causing so much embarrassement in Washington at the time.

On Ronnie Raygun the dunce -
For books discussing Reagan's confusions while President, see for example -

David A. Stockman [Reagan's Director of the Office of Management and Budget], The Triumph of Politics: How the Reagan Revolution Failed, New York: Harper and Row, 1986

Mark Green and Gail MacColl, There He Goes Again: Ronald Reagan's Reign of Error, New York: Pantheon, 1983

Mark Hertsgaard, On Bended Knee: The Press and the Reagan Presidency, New York: Schocken, 1988, especially ch. 7, titled "'An Amiable Dunce'" pp. 132-151
- presenting an incontrovertible case for the chapter's title, and noting such memorable but underreported moments as Reagan falling asleep during a one-on-one audience with the Pope, dozing off in the middle of speeches by the French and Italian Presidents, his beliefs that the Russian language has no word for "freedom," that trees cause eighty percent of air pollution, that the problem of segregated schools has been solved, his optimistic attitude towards limited nuclear war, and his tortured rewritings of history and only "passing acquaintance" with important policies of his administration -

[DrM]

That ol' sly devil Marty's got it all figured out. It makes a big difference whether attacks on Muslims are "official" or "non-official." Thats right, this precious factoid soothed the nerves of the owners of the Muslim bakery attacked 3 nights in a row. That should teach us not complain about such assaults.
In conclusion Marty, why don't you play Russian roulette with all chambers fully-loaded? Remember as long as its not "official" its cool.