What would constitute a real apology

I have to confess that I've found it difficult to warm to the new Pope since he aired his opposition to Turkey's membership of the EU on the grounds that it was a Muslim country. The implication to Muslim communities already living in Europe is not good. The meeting with Oriana Fallaci, of "Muslims have been told to come here and breed like rats" fame also sent out all the wrong signals, to say the least.

Which is why it's difficult to believe that the latest statements are entirely out of sync with his views. He's apologised, but only for the "interpretation" of what he said, not what he said in itself.

And then he only mentions what the media have latched onto - his quoting of Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus. Let's put aside the irony of a quote about the violence of Islam at a time when Christian Crusaders were rampaging through the Holy Land. This wasn't all that Ratzinger said. In his "apology" he said people wouldn't be complaining if they had made a "complete and attentive reading" of his text. Well, I have, and it's on my blog if anyone else wants to as well.

My main problem with what he said was that he declared the verse of Qur'an, 2:256, saying "Let there be no compulsion in religion" as superceded by later events in the life of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

This is one of the most famous verses in the Qur'an. I try to recite it every day, along with no doubt millions of others. And for the Pope to issue a fatwa as he did about it, is simply outrageous.

It is this that he must apologise for and his implication that converting people by force is the aim of jihad. When Pope Bendict repudiates this clearly, this matter will be considered closed.

Comments

[Sadat]

A real apology IMHO would constitute a direct "sorry" in person on national TV immediately followed by resignation.

Also it would be a good idea if there is a ban on Nazi popes like him in Vatican.

Retrial of his war crimes is also welcome.

[Vendetta]

Irony?You talk about Irony?

here's what is the irony: Some one makes a comment that you are violent, and you get all worked up, and SaY that you're not violent, BY GETTING VIOLENT.

here'e the irony: you shoot a WOMAN in the BACK, and that too THREE TIMES, because she was a christian nun.

here's what the irony is: YOu call the holy father, who just is trying to say that religion and violence are on two different wavelengths, as a Nazi war criminal.

here's what the oriny is: that you misfit dogs, bark about the "religion of peace", and about the verse in Quran that there's no complusion in religion, while you brothers in Iraq just converted two american journalists to Islam, ON GUNPOINT, and your other brothers in Jordan, killed a christian man, just because he was praying to Jesus on his evening walk.

You bloody bastards, blind moron dogs...pigheads...do you even know the fucking meaning of IRONY?

Infact, I shouldn't be genralizing this for all muslims.It is only for you, and for other sick "muslims" like you.Because I have personally know many good muslim friends, who respected other's faith, while firmly believing in their own faith.Who had the guts and the courage to have respect for diversity.

Your prophet Mohammed, by the way, was a pedophile.If you try to deny this, you'll be mocking yourself, because it is a vey well established historical fact.

[ainelivia]

As the words were not his, but someone else, perhaps he could apologise for the Emperor.

Further, I have heard no outrage at murderous violence and despair that Muslims bring to their brothers and sisters in Iraq, or the repressive regeime in Iran. Right now God is ashamed. And so am I at the displays of inhumanity I am reading and seeing.

[Vendetta]

Where has all the logic gone from the minds of the people.Where's all the rationality?

Why, oh Why, should he apologize for something that is not his.If your neighbour killed your bretheren, for example (because killing is the only language these so called "muslims" of today talk in), would YOU apologize on his behalf to your father?

Talk sense, and if you dont have any, then observe silence.

[Vendetta]

Your prophet raped a girl when she was too young for a bra.
TALK ABOUT IRONY.

YOUR PROPHET, "A MESSENGER OF GOD AND PEACE", killed people, looted people, massacred people, molested women, and taught you terrorism...he was the messenger of terrorism.
TALK ABOUT IRONY.

You ignorant fools, you logic-deprived iglots, you blood sucking, parasitic egoistic paranoids, get one thing straight into your head...ALL HUMAN beings were created by GOD, so GOD doesn't hate anyone.So you have no right to murder or loot or rape anyone who doesn't believe in what you believe in.
And, by the way, do you think that your God is so weak, that he can't handle non believers and traitors by himself, in his own way, that you do the job for him?

You people are sick.Medically ill in the head.All of you.

You people are brainwashed since the day you are born, and end up believeing such utter rubbish, that unfortuantely, logic is thrown out of the window.
You call the Holy Father, who is talking about peace, and only peace, "Hitler", while you incubate people like Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Zarqhawi, etc.

TALK ABOUT IRONY.

Islam-a religion of peace.[Which is translated into "Believe it, or else we'll kill you"]

TALKL ABOUT IRONY.

The very fact that the world and we people term you people as "people", and still consider you violent, misfit parasites as "humans", is ironic enough.
And then you have the audacity to...
"TALK ABOUT IRONY"!!!!

Ha!

You have no idea how deep in hell your kind already are.

[Sohaib]

It's just as well that I know too many Christians, including priests, to think that this Vendetta nutcase represents a lover of Christ (peace be upon him).

Preaching love while spitting bile? Pah.

[Sadat]

Speaking about apologies, I wonder what the Nazi pope have to say about the systematic rape and slaughter of Andalus ordered by the papacy.

Muslims accounted for about half of the Iberian peninsula in circa 1200 CE. By 1500 CE, their proportion had fallen to just around 5-7%. By 1800 CE, hardly 0.5%.

[ainelivia]

Lets stick to the present day.

Lets consider what looks to the rest of the world like double standards in the Islamic world. 2 Million made homeless in Darfur, 200,000 people killed in Darfur, so far. We have the basis for genocide, we need to do something PDQ, and the Islamic world takes to the streets in protest over words. What about People in Darfur?

Not one word, not one voice raised by leaders of the Islamic countries on this about to be Holocaust.

When as much energy is given to the living, as to the dead and hurt feelings, perhaps the world will listen.

[ainelivia]

Sohaib, taking a leaf from your example above. I don't feel comfortable with V's tone, equally Sadat's is in the same league so:

Sadat: It is just as well that I know too many Muslims, to think that Sadat represents a lover of God. Tell others what they should and shouldn't do while talking filth and preaching hate. Amadain!!

[H Mahmood]

this vendetta dude is crazy. I can just see him now foaming violently at the mouth whilst typing his filth.

[DrM]

Ainelivia, I wouldnt be talking about the chaos in Iraq given that the violence was brough to that country by the US and UK illegal invasion. You complain about Sadat yet defend that hateful comments of the Pope. If he had quoted any other medievil text targetting Jews he would have been called "anti-semetic." The man has a detailed history of opposing interfaith relations and his latest diatribe proves it.

[Usayd]

on Behalf of Gobshites everywhere, I would like to apologise for vendetta. The overwhelming vast majority of gobshites are harmless and ignorant, only a slim minority of gobshites behave in the manner of Vendetta. Please don't judge all Gobshites because of the actions of one extremist gobshite.

[ainelivia]

"The man has a detailed history of opposing interfaith relations and his latest diatribe proves it."

So where are the clerics encouraging not only inter-faith dialogue, but also the expression of Muslim outrage at the current events in Darfur, where are they? I don't see them on television? Are they all too busy pointing their fingers towards Rome? Too busy blaming, to care about their own brothers and sisters?

Ah, but silence is deafening, the silence defends them does it not, no criticism raised?

Defending the indefensible, maybe you should not be pointing fingers. It is the mans (Sadat) diatribe, and language that encourage me to speak, because he is insulting and offensive. In fact what suprises me is that though there is criticism of V, equally offensive, you are defending the equally purient behaviour of Sadat. I get a whiff of misogyny here.

What's happenning in Iraq and Darfur vis a vis the killing of Muslims by other Muslims, is something that needs to be spoken of. You are telling me that I should not speak of it? Oh sorry, because it is Muslim upon Muslim we shouldn't highlight the daily killing, the despair of the people, you would rather not hear about that? More people, as in civilians, are being killed on a daily basis in Iraq, but you stand back and blame George Bush and Tony Blair????

So where is the sense of personal responsibility. Surely the internecine fighting could be stopped at the drop of a hat? Especially if enoough Muslim voices condem it? But that is ok, because it's all GB's fault?

Victimhood being the great place to stand back and point the finger, but never actually do anything to change it. And as for human life, well that's not important. Right. Don't worry, you have fun while others die. If I were in your shoes, I'd be terribly afraid that when I came before God on the day of Judgement, the first question would be.

"Remember when you were using up your energy chasing around calling for an apology from my representative on earth, well one of them at least, well there were people dying in Darfur, did ye not know, did ye not do anything?

[DrM]

Ainelivia, I see your trollish nature coming to the surface. You're trying very hard to distract from the topic of the post. Quit trying to be more Catholic then the Pope, and stalking Sadat. The Pope was out of line, and you know as well as I do if he had uttered such filth against Jews he's be on his knees begging forgiveness for his "anti-semeticsm." Hitler youth part nonwithstanding. You've got some nerve complaining about "victimhood" while posting so many emotional responces here. Party like its 1299 indeed.

[velocity]

obviously the pope was well selected and his words well selected to create something of the situation that we have now. muslims are increasing in number and influence, and something needs to be done.

It's nothing personal, just the sunnah of shaytan and people of his influence. Only the relationship between oneself and god is personal.

What is extremely interesting, are people like vendetta. As people expressing such views are in a sense 'on the edge' in certain strands of thought. What happens when your on the edge is that your not stable, and you are likely to change your mind very fast -to something decent or otherwise.

Basically since 9/11 (and perhaps from before), the overall world result is that a lot of people are being driven to the edge of their thoughts, to really reflect about themselves and life. Now a spiel like that of vendetta is just of fellow human brother/sister who are in the process of 'jihad' (internal struggle) - so they should be disregarded until they are at a stable state.

[ainelivia]

DrM It is Sadat who has been trolling me. There is cyber tag bullying taking place on this website.

And you defend boorish and racist and just plain vicious comments of Sadat. Do you think that his comments are a welcome addition to the post?

Arab-Muslims are genociding African Muslims in Darfur. You did not answer that, but you appear to consider that a distraction, people are being murdered, that is a distraction?

Your fellow cyber bully S made inflammatory and insulting statements and I responded to those.

You call the Pope a Nazi, ok, so I go and look at the evidence and what did I come up with, some very interesting stuff about Muslims and the Nazi's.

Can't have it both ways.

And by the way, when you try to provoke another person until they become angry, that's called passive aggression, when you then go on to accuse them of the very thing you yourself have done (trolling) that's projection, and you demonstrate what I have come to see is quite a prevalent obsession among certain members of the Muslim community, The Jews; which is also called fixation.

Furthermore, you say I have posted so many emotional responses here. Yes, and will continue to respond if I so feel that it is justified, whilst unreasonable and "over emotional" slurs are posted on this website. If you think I am over emotional, then consider, One Nun Murdered over words.

Filth, murder and blood not on the Pope's hands. But as always try to deflect everyone away from what is really taking place.

[Abdur Rahman]

Peace, one and all...

I think that the Pope's comments seem worryingly insensitive at best. Does he have a history of such insensitivities?? I don't know. But, we all need to think and react calmly and with thought.

As for most of the other posts on this thread, I'd say two things. Firstly, murder, oppression and torture are wrong, whoever does them. And, ultimately, God (Allah) will judge us for our misdeeds and punish those responsible. Secondly, sometimes it seems that these debates are more a way of letting off emotional steam. So, it's probably better to read them in that way.

Even Vendetta's hateful diatribe is really about releasing pent-up fear (in a completely unacceptable manner). Sometimes, I also suspect that comments like these are merely made to cause an effect.

Abdur Rahman

[Sadat]

When will the Nazi pope learn to say a simple sorry? The Ummah is waiting.

http://www.imran.com/media/blog/2006/09/infallible-pope-makes-mistake-issues.html

[Ted]

Thank God I'm a Protestant.

[Sadat]

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/anas_altikriti/2006/09/an_insufficient_apology.html

[Sadat]

Its clear now that the Nazi pope is amused at the reaction to his harangue.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1874786,00.html

[Vinyl]

Your hypocracy is simply humorous.On the one hand, you get instigated and "hurt" and angry when someone says anything about your Prophet Mohammed.
And on the other hand, you call The Holy See as a Nazi Pope.

When will you people realize, that you can never clap with one hand.You should behave as you want others to behave with you.

You want us to respect your sentiments when you can't do the same for us.

You accuse us westerners as looking down at Muslims, and illtreating them, and not letting them follow their faith, when you dont even have the slightest of respect for people of other faiths in your country.

I am not trying to fight.Merely trying to make you realize, that please, religious tolerance is a two handed affair.I am not saying that anyone has any rigt to comment about your Prophet Mohammmed, but I am saying that you have no right to complaint against such comments, when on the other hand you are doing the same things to people of other religions.

I hope your Allah blesses you with sensitivity and sensibility.

[DrM]

Ainelivia, you're degenerating into idiocy. Darfur is African Muslim against African Muslim, get yourself educated before babbling out nonsense. If Sadat is trolling you, you've done a fantastic job feeding him. If you insult others, be prepared to be insulted. Vinyl I hope you leave your silly attempts at sarcasm and hypocrisy, dont tell people how to react after disrespecting them. I'll say what I bloody well please in response, and if you and fake free speech advocates cant handle it, take a hike with your tail between your legs.

[keith Malone]

The Pope needs to consider the safety and security of the Christians in the Muslim countries before uttering sick demented commenteds like he. What he said was totally at odds with Islam, the true religion of peace. This Pope is definitely the lapdog of Zionists.

[plurabella]

"I'll say what I bloody well please in response, and if you and fake free speech advocates cant handle it, take a hike with your tail between your legs."

My translation of this is that you have the right to speak, but others don't.

When we speak of free speech, it is freedom to speak, freedom from the threat of violence in response. There is a difference between intent to give offence and unintentionally doing so.

The speech was about the loss of spirituality in a materialistic society, and mostly addressed to western society. That is obvious, however if the speech was read looking for offence, as some seem to have already decided that His Holiness is pro-Judaism and anti others. It is that oh so reasonable and rational paranoia again, the message simply being "if you are not with me, you must be against me. If I don't agree with you, then you must be wrong".

Threats towards the Pope, yet no Catholics are threatening to kill, maim, burn or hang around other's place of worship chanting hate.

And no one sees any contradiction in this?