Saudis get in bed with Israel

An Israeli newspaper has reported that secret talks have taken place between Ehud Olmert and high-ranking Saudi officials (hat tip JSF).

The agenda included the Iranian nuclear programme, and the obligatory topic of peace with the Palestinians whenever anyone does meet the Israelis. Olmert all but confirmed the existence of the meetings:

"I am very impressed with different processes and statements that are connected to Saudi Arabia, some that have been stated publicly and others as well. I am very impressed with King Abdullah's wisdom and sense of responsibility," Olmert said.

Asked if Israel was holding secret contacts with Saudi Arabia, Olmert replied: "I do not have to answer every question."

Reason for the talks? "The [Israeli] prime minister was impressed by the moderate, positive stands that the Saudis expressed during the summer when Israel was fighting Hezbollah," the Israeli official who leaked story told The AP.

Now, one can look at this charitably for the Saudis and say we can't trust Israeli reports. But the fact that they can be used in such a way says it all about their recent actions. The reason for their siding with the Israelis against Hizbullah, and now Iran, is simply due their concern at the rise of Shia influence.

The folly of their position is clear. Iraq aside, it is interesting to see that the Sunni-Shia divide is being put to one side in the fight against occupation in Palestine. The people of the Arab world see Hizbullah as heroes. If the Saudis want to be loved, being the subservient wife of Israel isn't going to do it. Iran has rose to prominence because of their willingness to stand up to US and Israeli hegemony.

The dividing lines in the Muslim world are not Sunni and Shia anymore. There are now the occupiers and their friends, and those that are resisting them.

The news comes just days after Newsnight's exclusive report into how Israel have helped militarily train Kurdish soldiers in Iraq. The report also suggested that the Kurdish Hawler airport would be useful staging post for Israeli planes in an attack against Iran.

There have been reports for many years about Kurdistan being a "second Israel". Ironically, many Kurds like to point out that the liberator of Palestine from the Crusaders, Salahuddin Ayyubi, was Kurdish.

The impact on their aspirations for independence in Iraq will be dealt a sever blow by this. There has already been controversy about the Kurdish leader taking down the Iraqi flags from government buildings in his region.

It will also be embarrassing for Turkey who are seen as friendly towards Israel. What is clear is that many nations in the region are being played like a fiddle by Israel at the moment.

Comments

[Mohammade]

Hizbollah was defending its people? How exactly? by crossing into Israel and taking soldiers hostage...KNOWING that they are unable to defend Lebanon against Israel's attacks? How did they defend their people when thousands died and billions of loss to Lebanon and its economy. And now, they are trying to use it as a political tool in order to try to gain more seats in parliament and to displace the sunni prime minister. Joe, the fact of the matter remains that Hizbollah is a shia group which has ties with Iran and Israel (both of which are shia regimes).

[Mohammad]

oops obviously I meant Iran and Syria lol

[George Carty]

Why didn't Hizbollah spend more money on SAMs instead of bombardment rockets?

[George Carty]

Sadat, the reason why sizable minorities in the West support legalization of drugs and prostitution is because the harm that they cause is less than the harm that would be done by attempting to stamp them out. Note how alcohol Prohibition in the United States was a disastrous failure, and that illegal alcohol bars exist even in a tyrannical regime such as Saudi Arabia!

As for modest dress, I suspect the issue is that modern Western civilization emerged from one of the cloudiest regions on earth (whereas Islamic civilization of course emerged from one of the sunniest). Most Westerners long to expose their bodies to the sun - this is probably the basis for almost half of the total tourist industry in the world, and causes many Westerners to feel in their guts that no woman would dress modestly unless someone was forcing her to.

[Osama]

the fact of the matter remains that Hizbollah is a shia group which has ties with Iran and [Syria] (both of which are shia regimes).

Mohammad, your point being?

They also happen to be the only regimes in the region that haven't sold their souls to the US.

Israeli prisoners have been captured before and swaps have taken place. You ask who Hizbullah were defending - there are 10,000 people held by Israel at the moment. Gaza was under bombardment and noone was doing anything. This is the context of the capture of those Israeli soldiers.

There is no way given the history of prisoner exchanges that Hizbullah could have known what would happen, and attacking civilian targets as Israel did after military targets were captured was morally repugnant.

[joe90]

I would just like to add,
that Israel's destruction of Lebanon and attacks on civilians was pre-planned - these attacks were carried out to some kind of blue-print and Israeli authorities made it plain as day that Lebanese civilians were legitimate targets, as far as they were concerned, in the early part of their campaign of destruction and collective punishment against Lebanon as a whole.

Israel is responsible for the mass-murder and destruction of Lebanon, not the Lebanese or those resistng the occupying violent racist Israeli regime. Sorry, but resistence isn't a crime neither is being of the Shia faith and neither is having relations with other people or organisations in this world. Since when is having 'links' to Iran a crime? No Israeli soldies were 'kidnapped' - that is the empty rhetoric of the violent racist Israeli regime and their assorted thugs and stooges. These enemy soldiers were captured.

Hezbollah offered a straightforward swap for illegal detainees held by Israel. Most of these Israeli detainees are civilians and nothing to do with any military organisation whatsoever. They were kidnapped and are being held hostage (in the proper sense of both words) illegally by Israel, as far as international law is concerned. Israel refused point-blank all offers of peaceful negotiations and a straightforworad peceful swap of prisoners. Israel used a minor border incident (one of many over the years and hardly anything out the ordinary for that border area) to immediately launch a full military attack on what it thought would be a defenceless opponent, which turned out to be a very wrong assessment (another example of rubbish western intelligence - nothing new). Hezbollah waited for over a day, after the Israeli aerial onslaught began, before it began its own rocket barrage on Israel. Israel was given more than enough time by Hezbollah to come to its senes, to stop its collective punishment of Lebanon, and open peaceful dialogue on prisoner swaps.

Again, during the conflict itself, at any point all Israel needed to do to stop Hezbollah rocket attacks, was to halt its wholesale attack on Lebanon and start peaceful negotiations. The onus was on Israel. If Israel was so concerned for the welfare of its own citizens all it needed to do was stop its bombardment of Lebanon. More empty rhetoric from Israel and its turgid collection of racist war criminal apologists (nothing new). I repeat, Hezbollah repeatedly asked for peaceful negotiations (as Syria and occupied Palestinians have for years and years) but it was Israel who resorted to violence first, and knew if it wanted Hezbollah rockets to stop all it had to do was stop its attacks (the same situation applies to occupied Palestine - call off the illegal occupation, go home back to Israel and the Palestinian resistence is over).

As far as I am aware 'mohammed', you are the only person I have met who has said that the South Lebanese Resistence Movement's recent trashing of the invicible' Israeli military was a defeat of sorts for Hezbollah. The facts say differently. Hezbollah completely humiliated Israel and showed the rest of the world how weak Israel is, in regards to Israel's traditional strength ie rejecting all peaceful negotiations and immediately resorting to violence and force to get what it wants. It didn't work this time - neither collective punishment not its ground offensive achieved anything except international condemnation and abject humiliation as the Hezbollah Resistence Fighters blew away the IDF on the ground.

Here is a handy wee article -
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=538>Britain's role in the Israeli-Hezbollah War
- fullly referenced with links where appropriate

[Sunny]

Well said, Joe

Pig eaters think from behind. That's why they have no problem in legalising prostitution and drugs but have a problem with modest dressing styles.

Genius! Joe, ever smoked a reefer or had a ham sandwich? Your friend Sadat wants to know.

[Sunny]

Oh and Sadat, drugs are largely illegal, and so are many practices around prostitution. I'd rather they were legal to be honest so they could be taxed and regulated but I don't expect someone so stupid to understand libertarianism. At least the west is relatively more open about the consumption of drugs and prostitution, rather than those Arabs who pretend they're pious.

[joe90]

Funny Sunny,
not one of your two comments, which you went to all the trouble of posting, has anything of substance to say about the actual issues at hand -

- that only leaves the single conclusion that you have nothing to say because I am correct - there is nothing left for you to do except to spout gibberish and rubbish -

- if you had any evidence, facts or arguments to refute what I have said, then I know the likes of you and your fanatical ideological brainwashed racist war criminal collective punishment supporters would have presented it in a flash -

- you have neither the evidence nor the arguments to refute the fact that the Israeli regime are nothing but a bunch of racist war criminal, mass-murdering, child-massacring violent thugs and goons!

Either prove me wrong,
or continue gibbering inanely, spouting rubbish of no consequence -

[Sunny]

C'mon Joe - answer the question!

ever smoked a reefer or had a ham sandwich?

Be interesting to know given you agree with Sadat so much... maybe you agree the point about 'people who eat pigs' too?

[ainelivia]

Joe, "How many countries has Iran attacked, or is occupying at the present time?"

Most of the Iranians I know tell of a country that is "attacking itself". Actually it is imploding. It's people are impoverished, it's women are denied human rights, it's government seems not to be able to re-distribute it's oil revenue to benefits it's citizens. It aims for 21st century nuclear power, while it's citizens live in 14th century conditions.

[Mohammad]

Osama:
Gaza and Palestine has been under bombardment for years.

As for Iran and Syrian regimes not "selling their souls to the US". PLEASE, please PLEASE let's review our history. How did the Alawites get into power in Syria? How did the Iranis topple the Shah? What's the state of Sunnis in these countries? Who had "peace" negotiations with Israel in the 90's?

Hizbollah's arms are not about fighting Israel. Never did they ask for the release of Palestinian prisoners. Hizbollah is a political party in Lebanon that wants to gain control and have a country that is obedient to Syria and Iran. Let's face the facts...you might also want to check the ORIGINAL constitution of Hizbollah, the first point of which read "To establish a government in Lebanon that is an ally of the Islamic Republic of Iran".

[joe90]

I take that as a no,
you are unable to prove me wrong Sunny - I didn't hold out much hope anyway.

Same with these other two writers of the genre of gibberish, 'Mohammed' and psuedo-irish one -

I'll answer just one example of Mohammed's nonsensical prose, otherwise we'd have to review the whole of post-WWII US Middle East Foreign policy -
The Iranian Revolution threw the Yanks and their Shah out of Iran, I seem to remember - so why Mohammed wants to know -
How did the Iranis topple the Shah?
- I find completely irrelevant to the topic at hand - why he finds this of interest and what relevance it has to the topic at hand I've no idea - I suggest Mohammed reads a history book if he is that interested

Same with our imagination-leaper, who recently tried to imply Israel doesn't have illegal nuclear WMD - who is unable to distinguish between questions about a countries foreign relations and its domestic policies -
- it seems that no matter what Iran does or doesn't do, it's always going to be held guilty of something, just because it won't follow its US orders for some strange reason -

Until such times as Iran does follow the orders of the US, it will be held under the western propaganda microscope - lies will be fabrciated about it, such as Iranian WMD (just like Iraqi WMD) and what its political representatives say will be mis-quoted or simply just invented for the purposes of western propaganda -
- Iran is held to greater standards of conduct and accountability than are used by these raving brainwashed fanatics for judging western govenments, and any US client

If Iran's foreign policy is the very model of a peaceful, moderation and reason and no smears or fake scare stories abour Iranian WMD work, then it will be held to account for not being a veritable domestic utopian paradise - as the countries of the west are, of course -

Once Iran does start to obey The Masters of the Universe in Washington, all these criticism will be no more - you'll never hear of any crimes perpetrted by the regime as under the bloodthirsty Shah - complete invisiblity - just like the rest of the US puppets of the region - hardly a sqeak said about these totalitarina dictatorships

I get the feeling these nonsense writers will always find something to be outraged about, regarding the current victims and targets of US imperial policy - typical of their brainwashed fanatical racist ideological ilk -

Practically everything that is supposed to be wrong with the Iranian government could be used as a criticism of these people's beloved and perfect America, a country directly involved in numerous racist bloodbaths around the world -
- the US has unequal distribution of wealth
- the US is a country that is imploding
ie its democracy doesn't work, inequality at every level is growing, healthcare sytems doen't work, public services in general don't work - on and on
- it's prison is a global disgrace
- it's a racist state if there ever was one
- and I suppose women are treated with the greatest respect in the US, a model paradise for women indeed, of all races and all wealth categories - if we are to believe the current nonsensical-writer-in-residence and all round racist

[Osama]

Gaza and Palestine has been under bombardment for years.

Mohammad, if you do not even know the news from this year, I'm certainly not going to take history lessons from you.

[Mohammad]

Joe and Osama,
Let's stop being emotional and simply support Iran and Syria because they are "against the US". The regimes in the region have, for years, prayed on our emotional reactions. Governments have been allowed to clamp down on people because they are "at war with Israel". This is senseless.
Osama, you seem to assume so much about me :)
Akhi, please consider my comments again. I'm not here for history lessons.
Joe: they are relevant because Osama said that those regimes are standing up to the US and all that jazz.

[ainelivia]

"you are unable to prove me wrong Sunny" sayeth Joe.

No-one is trying to "prove" anyone is "wrong", except you.

[Osama]

Mohammad, my last point was that you do not seem to even realise that while Gaza has yes been under occupation for decades, there was a considerable step up on attacks there this year after Hamas was elected. This is what led to the capture of the Israeli soldier etc etc

If you do not even recognise this, then I find it difficult to take any of your other points going back further into history seriously at all.

[joe90]

women are denied human rights

- yes, such as Amish female children lined up and executed!

- or Lindsay England and Abu Graibh perhaps, those kinds of women's rights do you mean?

- or the massacre of Iraqi, Afghanistan, Palestinian and Lebanese women - those sorts of womens' rights do you mean?

- or womens' right under all the US Arab Puppet regimes perhaps, those sorts of rights?

[joe90]

What you have just said doesn't make anything you have said heretofore any clearer to me,

If you are saying I've picked you up the wrong way then fine, please clarify my quotation of you
How did the Iranis topple the Shah?

You write a jumble of lines together and then blame your interlocutors for mis-understanding you - well all I can say is, in my defence, is that it is no problem at all about not getting your meaning because there doesn't seem to be one, just a pile of assorted words, incoherent sentences and questions -
- I suppose if you are serious then it should be no problem at all to unravel your thoughts and communicate them in a coherent fashion -
- its easy enough to do!

[joe90]

No-one is trying to "prove" anyone is "wrong", except you.

This is a phenomenon I come across quite often, especially when I am wiping the floor with brainwashed ideological racist fanatics like you.

[Sunny]

I take that as a no,
you are unable to prove me wrong Sunny - I didn't hold out much hope anyway.

What the hell are you on about boy? I didn't even read your long winded gibberish because it did not even relate to my question.

My question was simply if you've ever eaten a ham sanwich or smoked a reefer.

Since you're being so blatantly evasive I'll assume it's a yes and you're too embarassed to admit that Sadat insulted you (indirectly) but you took it like a good little servant.
You'd never insult a brown bigot would you... because they don't exist!!

[ainelivia]

"This is a phenomenon I come across quite often, especially when I am wiping the floor with brainwashed ideological racist fanatics like you."

And you express your ideas in an aggressive, ("wiping the floor") insulting way; it may be that some or all, of what you say has validity; however, the tone and the insults leaves your listeners disinclined to take in the message you strive so hard to get across.

[ainelivia]

Sadat, "problem with modest dressing styles."

The problem here is that you see only a certain section of the female community. Those who draw the eye.

Its the myth, that what you see on tv and in magazines is how "western women" dress. The nuns who taught me went into freefall if anything was above the elbow or the knee. And I was once sent home to change my clothes because I was on my way to church wearing jeans. The root of this problem is the "commodisation" of the human if not the female body.

A lot of women are far more conservative of dress than you give us credit for.

[Mohammad]

Osama, fine, but in recent talks with the press, Hizbollah revealed that their plan had been in the works for years! It has nothing to do with Gaza or the Palestinians man. It has everything to do with trying to gain internal strenght on the Lebanese political arena. Perhaps we are not following the same news?

[Osama]

Mohammad, Hizbullah have said they were prepared for an Israeli attack. That is not the same as them wanting it to happen. I think you'll find that Nasrallah said that he was taken aback by the Israeli response to the capture of two soldiers. The normal course of action seen many times in the past was that there would be a prisoner exchange. How exactly were Hizbullah to know this time Israel would flatten their country?